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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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 Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
See for me this statement does hold true to a certain extent. While I think it is good to be able to grapple, strike and throw, I personally would rather devote myself to being a good striker with the bare minimum in other areas rather than spreading myself too thinly across multiple disciplines.
A lot of people talk about combat readiness and the time it takes to be able to hold your own in a fight, IMO if you try start mixing things up too early before becoming proficient in a base style, it may take you longer to develop into a good fighter able to hold your own.
I would advocate a base style first before branching out into other methods of fighting. The exception to that argument though is if you have a trainer who has already developed a way to mix these styles together and is in effect teaching you a system. Then I think you could jump straight in without a base style. |
In this scenario, I will reference the MMA fighters and practitioners out there. They are able to allocate their training time to include the various aspects of the fight game; standing, clinch, and ground. Sure, there are some with their specialties, but it is apparent that none of them could compete successfully if they didn't have the knowledge of all three. Therefore, I think it is important to consider the training methods that are entailed to help make one a more complete fighter. |
But how many MMA fighters (who didn't already have a base style) just jumped straight in there and start off on their own in different styles? More likely they will go to a gym for MMA training where part of the teaching is to show you how its done. Ok beginners can go to a grappling class and a karate class independantly but in terms of combat readiness they are not progressing that fast in either as they have to divide their time and get their head around first actually controlling their movements then starting to put them to work. Most beginners are not going to be that competent in a fight when making the transition between each of the styles that make up their game. IMO this is when they should either focus on a base style or how somebody there like a trainer to show them how to do it.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: |
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At the outset of MMA you'd have been entirely correct. Most of us who competed in the early days did have some "base art" to work out of. Gradually, this is changning.
Now days, with the popularity of the game, it's very common to see guys walk in and just start training MMA. They may not all compete, but they're training in it none the less. And the fighters you see turned out today are far superior more quickly than those of a decade back by and large.
It's a training paradigm that I'd like to see more utilzed in sd arts, that's all. Not that commitment to a base style is bad, I just think that MMA kind of taught us how to turn out good fighters quickly. I like to think that we can apply the same type of methodology to sd goals as well. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
At the outset of MMA you'd have been entirely correct. Most of us who competed in the early days did have some "base art" to work out of. Gradually, this is changning.
Now days, with the popularity of the game, it's very common to see guys walk in and just start training MMA. They may not all compete, but they're training in it none the less. And the fighters you see turned out today are far superior more quickly than those of a decade back by and large.
It's a training paradigm that I'd like to see more utilzed in sd arts, that's all. Not that commitment to a base style is bad, I just think that MMA kind of taught us how to turn out good fighters quickly. I like to think that we can apply the same type of methodology to sd goals as well. |
I probably didn't explain myself but that's kinda what I meant. A beginner can either go three routes to cross training, MMA gym, base style and then cross training or just jump in at different totally schools (with no affliation to each other). The last one is probably the hardest to do for an MA newbie and I think if you want to cross train you'd probably be better off going somewhere that teaches you MMA (like a gym etc.) or doing it via the base style.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| I'd agree with that breakdown, DWx. The last is probibly the hardenst for a new person to do. I'm not sure I'd ever council anyone away from that path, but it certainly would be the hardest of those choices to pick up. Also the one requiring the most time and (in most cases) monitary commitment. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Ok beginners can go to a grappling class and a karate class independantly but in terms of combat readiness they are not progressing that fast in either as they have to divide their time and get their head around first actually controlling their movements then starting to put them to work. |
This will just depend more on time and availability. If you have one style that has classes 3 times per week, you could fill in the other 2 days or more with another style, and you don't lose any time with either. If you have that kind of time, anyway.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Zanshin
Purple Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 530
Styles: Wado Ryu Karate, Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, Ono-Ha Itto-Ryu Kenjutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have a bit of a problem with this.
Firstly, I am not familiar with the word "bunk" but I get the gist I think.
As you can see if you look to left hand margin, I study not only Karate, but also traditional Jujutsu and Kenjustu and I love it, but I do the last two purely to enhance my understanding of Karate. I would not try to blend them into my own system.
From a fighting point of view, use what you can I agree, but as Bushi knows, I feel that anyone can be taught to fight (defend them self) fairly easily (just go on a course). Its what depth is behind a system IMO.
To me, martial arts means so much more than just fighting. BTW I am no slouch at fighting either... grrr!
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"The difference between the possible and impossible is one's will"
"saya no uchi de katsu" - Victory in the scabbbard of the sword. (One must obtain victory while the sword is undrawn).
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Zanshin wrote: |
From a fighting point of view, use what you can I agree, but as Bushi knows, I feel that anyone can be taught to fight (defend them self) fairly easily (just go on a course). Its what depth is behind a system IMO.
To me, martial arts means so much more than just fighting. BTW I am no slouch at fighting either... grrr! |
I agree, mastering the depth of a system can take years, or a lifetime, or however you want to say it. I have been sticking with it for 14 years now, so I am not a "one and done" seminar kind of guy.
However, I believe that you can make the study of Martial Arts as deep or as shallow as you like. You can get spiritual, or you can stay within the physical aspects. Placing a focus on either one doesn't make one any less or any more of a Martial Artist, in my opinion. One's spiritual expedition is another's focus on survival.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Zanshin
Purple Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 530
Styles: Wado Ryu Karate, Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, Ono-Ha Itto-Ryu Kenjutsu
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Zanshin wrote: |
From a fighting point of view, use what you can I agree, but as Bushi knows, I feel that anyone can be taught to fight (defend them self) fairly easily (just go on a course). Its what depth is behind a system IMO.
To me, martial arts means so much more than just fighting. BTW I am no slouch at fighting either... grrr! |
I agree, mastering the depth of a system can take years, or a lifetime, or however you want to say it. I have been sticking with it for 14 years now, so I am not a "one and done" seminar kind of guy.
However, I believe that you can make the study of Martial Arts as deep or as shallow as you like. You can get spiritual, or you can stay within the physical aspects. Placing a focus on either one doesn't make one any less or any more of a Martial Artist, in my opinion. One's spiritual expedition is another's focus on survival. |
I agree, and in particular with your statement about "spiritual expectations vs survival focus". Actually I think that they are mutually intertwined.
Although I know what you mean, the "spiritual thing" always sounds a bit naff to me, as I have always been a fighter, but the older I get the more I am enjoying the challenge of trying to unravel the coding behind arts like Wado. With this process I am learning great deal about Wado and myself.
Maybe that is akin to a sort of spiritual thing as it is quite an introspective process I guess 
I think the thing is, its whatever floats your boat!
_________________
"The difference between the possible and impossible is one's will"
"saya no uchi de katsu" - Victory in the scabbbard of the sword. (One must obtain victory while the sword is undrawn).
www.art-of-budo.com |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Zanshin wrote: |
Although I know what you mean, the "spiritual thing" always sounds a bit naff to me, as I have always been a fighter, but the older I get the more I am enjoying the challenge of trying to unravel the coding behind arts like Wado. With this process I am learning great deal about Wado and myself.
Maybe that is akin to a sort of spiritual thing as it is quite an introspective process I guess
I think the thing is, its whatever floats your boat! |
I agree, on both accounts. 
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Tiger1962
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: U.S.A.
Styles: Former SBD; interest in all training styles.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Re: "Jack-of-all-trades, Master of none..." |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
This phrase floats around a lot in MA discussion, especially when it might come to cross-training, or training for events that might demand such action, like MMA competition, or RBSD.
So, my question to the members of KarateForums.com, is how much does this really concern you? Do you worry about having too much on your plate, or that you won't be able to excell in one style because you take time for 2?
Personally, I feel that the phrase is bunk. When you get to the root of the matter, that Martial Arts primary goal is to allow you one to effectively defend oneself, then it is imperative that one be able to handle oneself in any situation that could arise in combat, be it standing, clinching, or grappling. In the end, I think it has more to do with effective time management and training programs.
What does the community think? |
I feel that if all you are trying to do is pick up a few moves from a couple different styles to supplement your existing training, then that's fine. I agree with your statement: being able to defend oneself is the ultimate goal and managing your time doing that is key. However for those who own and operate a school and are trying to be the "one stop shopping" martial arts school, then I think they are doing the city the school exists in a big disservice by misrepresenting themselves just to bring in more $$$$ to their dojo.
Sometimes a person will say they're experienced in various styles just to recruit as many students as possible to their school. That's a bad move AND false advertising.
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on the post.
