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Zaine
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1920
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.
you might never punch a downed opponent by your feet but have you ever thought of the movement in a grappling context? Like say pulling and pushing someone down?

I definitely donít take it for granted that others think about karate the way I do. Even in my own organization Iím unique in my approach, much less my experience interacting with the wider karate community online.

I used to love the karate culture FB page, then it got pretty big (by karate page standards) and a bunch people who had clearly never even had a sparring session with moderate power began postingÖdonít remember his name but one was a major fraud with self published books talking about energy, and sharing videos of him demonstrating how defend against someone swinging a stick like object at your head (his partner used a bokken) where he simply just caught it with one hand and pulled it from their two handed grip lol.
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
are there videos of these demos? Iíd really be interested in seeing the speed and level of intensity his partner uses for them.


Not in the public forum. The ones in the public forum are more in the area of focusing on Hohan Soken and sometimes a young Nishihira is seen in them . The ones of Nishihira post Soken are private ones I have seen and collected . The '3 strikes you are out' technique' is against a more lumbering, swinging drunk type .... not a 'snappy boxer' * . The other one where the wrist is twisted to the outside, I already said I am skeptical of it IF the person does not do a 'tsuki' and leave there hand and arm sticking out there floating in the air (although I see this commonly in karate demos ) .

* one guy shaped up boxing style to Nishihira , his response was to leap in from a distance with flying roundhouse kick (faint ) to his knee, as the guy stepped back and Nishihira kicked with the other leg into the inside of the other knee .

( a bit of an issue , the guy had to be hospitalized , some asked 'Why did you do that ?"

" He want to fight me ! "

It was explained that 'at home' if someone jumped around 'at you ' like that they where 'inviting you to SPAR with them ' . - personally I think it was an 'impoliteness issue ' - he should have bowed first and then asked if Mr N would spar with him for training purposes .

If you are not familiar with him ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.


Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike .

'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well )

Doing a 'wrong' move or bunkai will not make much sense or work .

But thats my issue , doesnt seem to matter .... people will just keep on practicing it over and over , and teaching it to others to practice over and over . Which is fine , IF your sport is technical accurate reproduction of anothe'rs movements .
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Zaine wrote:
I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.
you might never punch a downed opponent by your feet but have you ever thought of the movement in a grappling context? Like say pulling and pushing someone down?

I definitely donít take it for granted that others think about karate the way I do. Even in my own organization Iím unique in my approach, much less my experience interacting with the wider karate community online.

I used to love the karate culture FB page, then it got pretty big (by karate page standards) and a bunch people who had clearly never even had a sparring session with moderate power began postingÖdonít remember his name but one was a major fraud with self published books talking about energy, and sharing videos of him demonstrating how defend against someone swinging a stick like object at your head (his partner used a bokken) where he simply just caught it with one hand and pulled it from their two handed grip lol.


I can definitely relate to that !

We do a kata - Nabudhi Nagata ( sic ? only ever HEARD the name - never seen it else where ) . It supposed has staff disarming techniques . I wa shown some applications just like that ! he just pulled the staff away and hit the other with it . Ummmmm , yeah, but what if he ISNT your instructor and you decide NOT to hand it over compliantly ( which is what they are actually doing .

OR

one move showed a full powered forearm block against the incoming staff ! My protests where met with ' Well, some guys can break a bat over their arm ." - sigh -

My response ; 'Go on then " . Well HE couldnt do that .... so what the hell was the point ? Neither can I . its been adapted so they DID work , eg I take the hit from the other side and everything flows smoothly with no force or shock ( to me that is ) and incorporates the sequence of the next few moves , resulting in a 'throw away' of the person with me left holding the staff .
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
Zaine wrote:
I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.


Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike .

'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well )

Doing a 'wrong' move or bunkai will not make much sense or work .

But thats my issue , doesnt seem to matter .... people will just keep on practicing it over and over , and teaching it to others to practice over and over . Which is fine , IF your sport is technical accurate reproduction of anothe'rs movements .
or perhaps itís an inelegant solo representation of ground and pound. Knee on belly KC style. Best I got for how to interpret it as striking a downed opponent
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1920
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike .


The example the comes to mind here is Gojushiho. In the Shobayashi iteration of it, there is the sequencing of the finger strikes, kick, punch, then a horse stance at 45 degrees where we scoop up the head (imagine grabbing hair) and then punch down. There is also the final move of Chinto (also Shobayashi) where the final move is expressly hitting a downed opponent by going to the knee and delivering a punch. There isn't much of this in Matsumura-Seito, but I've encountered quite a lot of it in Shobayashi.

Quote:
'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well )


Ananku, in every version that I have learned, sets a cat stance in the first two shutos by stepping forward into a cat stance. Some versions of Wansu also end with setting a cat stance forward for the shutos. Pinan Shodan often steps forward into cat stance with shutos as well.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1920
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
you might never punch a downed opponent by your feet but have you ever thought of the movement in a grappling context? Like say pulling and pushing someone down?


Sure, and we have that in spades, but we also have just straight up punches to a downed opponent. It even shows up in our ippon kumite and other "official" bunkai applications. We have one that comes to mind where, after a throw, we punch to the groin.
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Miick 11 wrote:
Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike .


The example the comes to mind here is Gojushiho. In the Shobayashi iteration of it, there is the sequencing of the finger strikes, kick, punch, then a horse stance at 45 degrees where we scoop up the head (imagine grabbing hair) and then punch down. There is also the final move of Chinto (also Shobayashi) where the final move is expressly hitting a downed opponent by going to the knee and delivering a punch. There isn't much of this in Matsumura-Seito, but I've encountered quite a lot of it in Shobayashi.

Quote:
'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well )


Ananku, in every version that I have learned, sets a cat stance in the first two shutos by stepping forward into a cat stance. Some versions of Wansu also end with setting a cat stance forward for the shutos. Pinan Shodan often steps forward into cat stance with shutos as well.


Its probably a terminology issue ? I thought a 'downed opponent' is a finished one . Not a 'taken down ' one.

But you probably mean when someone is 'lower' than you are ? Or they are 'on their way down ' and you sorta 'help them along ' . We have plenty of that , then after that, they are 'downed' .

Plenty of kata moves are shuto going forward in cat stance too , but I dont see moving forward as 'setting' into cat stance . Its more of a circular motion with the front foot to get around the others lead foot . And as I said , we dont use shuto as a type of 'chop' or a 'block' ; its a short circular movement, in front, with both hands to 'get around' the others attacking arm and strike over the top of that arm to any weak point above their shoulder.

And the Chinto I do ends nothing like you described , although there are two other occasions when you punch from a one knee kneeling position in the form of Gojoshiho that we do , but they are not directed downwards . There is a reason why they are done one one knee though , but it isnt to hit someone on the ground .

I feel we are back in the place where many moves in kata may have lost their meaning during the transition from old traditional style to modern 'school style' just as the applications for basics did .
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it looks like no one here ( in this thread , anyway ) moves backwards when practicing 'kihon' against an attack , or as a bunkai from a kata move .

Shotokan seems to love doing it . And many other demos on youtube .
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