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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
By and large I believe they’re grappling techniques.
Frames, limb manipulations, get aways, and possibly even submissions.

Anything that isn’t clearly a strike in my opinion is related to grappling in some way. It’s just an issue of figuring out those lost applications. Or ‘secret’ applications if that makes one feel better about it.


Yes, many of the more 'obscure' moves in some kata , I have been shown are grappling / take downs .

So how do you train with these techniques ? Are you doing inner and outer 'blocks' then counter . or are you doing something like I described above ? or something else ?

- no one seems to want to comment on these techniques , so I am guessing not many , if any, other people do them , or even understand what I am talking about .


Regarding 'lost applications' I remember this story ; Hohan Soken went to Argentina and missed the conversion of old style Okinawan karate into modern day 'school kid / sports ' karate . He returned to Okinawa later and saw some of the modern karate and asked what it was those people where doing . He was surprised to be told it was 'karate ' . However he did teach that 'old style' to some people .

I know many people dispute this , quotes from seniors who trained with Soken , like " I trained constantly with them and I never saw any distinction ." yet there was a distinctive difference between Soken's American students that also trained 'on base ' and those that just trained with him as 'close associates ' .

Eg, In my travels around Australia seeking out people that trained with Nishihira, one person ( who was student of Ted Lange - Ted bought Soken's karate to Australia , he was an American serviceman in Okinawa , after Soken's death Ted informed us, that for us, Mr Nishihira would be the new master of the style) had gone to Okinawa to train with Mr. Nishihira and he told me the first thing he said was 'Show me your karate ' . So he did some kata . Nishihra commented in politeness ; " Oh yes , Ted style , very good ! "

He said " No disrespect to Ted , but I have trained under him for years . If want to learn more from him, I just go to the next town where we live . But now I have traveled half way across the world to see you and I would like to learn anything that you think is worthwhile . "

Then according to him, a whole lot of new stuff was taught . And it was that same stuff that I have been extracting and concentrating on , that seems to exist within and alongside the 'other' 'base tradition' . They are the differences of technique that I have described in a few posts here .

I am sure this 'old style ' exists and was passed on by others than Soken ?

No one seems to speak about it here though ?
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I experiment and test things out.
If it doesn’t make sense in a striking context I move on to thinking about it in the context of standing grappling.
Then I find someone like my mom, who also trains (though she’s not very good tbh) if she can reliably prevent me from doing a technique with the movement, then obviously I need to rethink what the movement is.
If i can reliably do it to her I move on to someone better at martial arts, or someone just bigger and/or stronger.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my TKD school, we have our "basics" for warmups, in which we do the striking going forward and backward in stances, and of course the "blocking" going forward and backward in stances. It's all just done as technique work, with nothing ever really applied to it. I've had to dig for application work on my own.

When I train for defensive tactics, I rarely, if ever, teach my students to go backwards. At most, maybe a drop step with one foot to get into a good defensive stance and perhaps blocking then, but otherwise, I am not a proponent of backing up, at all.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
In my TKD school, we have our "basics" for warmups, in which we do the striking going forward and backward in stances, and of course the "blocking" going forward and backward in stances. It's all just done as technique work, with nothing ever really applied to it. I've had to dig for application work on my own.

When I train for defensive tactics, I rarely, if ever, teach my students to go backwards. At most, maybe a drop step with one foot to get into a good defensive stance and perhaps blocking then, but otherwise, I am not a proponent of backing up, at all.

Me neither!! It's just not in my DNA whatsoever. Albeit, it does occur whenever the moment arises, therefore, training it sure doesn't upset the horse and the cart. Even then, sidewards/angles are far more preferred over any backward motion...unless ones overwhelmed by the attacker advances.



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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
In my TKD school, we have our "basics" for warmups, in which we do the striking going forward and backward in stances, and of course the "blocking" going forward and backward in stances. It's all just done as technique work, with nothing ever really applied to it. I've had to dig for application work on my own.


Yeah well, we can mix it all up like that for 'warm ups' or just practice techniques but I am specifically asking about why people move forward in kata to do their 'blocks' but move backwards in practicing those techniques from katas . And also (trying) to introduce this 'new idea' - I thought someone here might also have encountered this ?

bushido_man96 wrote:

When I train for defensive tactics, I rarely, if ever, teach my students to go backwards. At most, maybe a drop step with one foot to get into a good defensive stance and perhaps blocking then, but otherwise, I am not a proponent of backing up, at all.


Indeed , most of the moves I described are angling off to the side And moving forward - its hard to 'brush something aside ' / strike at it to deflect its path unless you are moving sideways and/or forward . And by stepping back you are often out of range for a counter without stepping or sliding back in.

So, when you train for these 'defensive tactics ' and you "get into a good defensive stance and perhaps blocking then " do you use 'blocks' and counters or something like what I described ?
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:

Me neither!! It's just not in my DNA whatsoever. Albeit, it does occur whenever the moment arises, therefore, training it sure doesn't upset the horse and the cart. Even then, sidewards/angles are far more preferred over any backward motion...unless ones overwhelmed by the attacker advances.




I have seen Mr Nishihira 'back up ' .... it goes like this ( a 'self defense' thing ) ;

1. person takes a swing at him , he throws hands up and steps back out of range ; " No no , I no fight ! "

2. they take another swing , he steps back, throws arms up again ; " No! I no fight ! "

3. they take another swing , he goes to step back again, throws arms up but catches the punch in both hands ( like a clap ) , angles to side , slides front foot forward , seizes their wrist with one hand and the other slides up the inside of their arm to 'nukite' in the throat .


- 2 warnings , strike 3 and your 'out' .

Another one I have seen is a step back, seize the punch and twist the wrist outward . I dont particularly like it .... hard to do unless the other does a straight punch and then leaves it hanging out there in the air ..... some do that in training , but not the 'street wise' .
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:

Me neither!! It's just not in my DNA whatsoever. Albeit, it does occur whenever the moment arises, therefore, training it sure doesn't upset the horse and the cart. Even then, sidewards/angles are far more preferred over any backward motion...unless ones overwhelmed by the attacker advances.




I have seen Mr Nishihira 'back up ' .... it goes like this ( a 'self defense' thing ) ;

1. person takes a swing at him , he throws hands up and steps back out of range ; " No no , I no fight ! "

2. they take another swing , he steps back, throws arms up again ; " No! I no fight ! "

3. they take another swing , he goes to step back again, throws arms up but catches the punch in both hands ( like a clap ) , angles to side , slides front foot forward , seizes their wrist with one hand and the other slides up the inside of their arm to 'nukite' in the throat .


- 2 warnings , strike 3 and your 'out' .

Another one I have seen is a step back, seize the punch and twist the wrist outward . I dont particularly like it .... hard to do unless the other does a straight punch and then leaves it hanging out there in the air ..... some do that in training , but not the 'street wise' .
are there videos of these demos? I’d really be interested in seeing the speed and level of intensity his partner uses for them.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strategically I'd back up for only one reason, to try drawing my attacker closer to me. This works with only the gullible attackers and not the streetwise attacker. Understand, I don't knock anyone who goes backwards, it's just not in my DNA to do so unless strategy demands it.



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aurik
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our bunkai, we almost never step straight backwards. We have situations where we pivot off the line of attack, where we step back to the side at a 45 degree angle, or where we step directly into the attack.

The only two situations that I (yet) know of are in seisan and kanchin, and we don't just step back in these situations either.

In seisan, the defender is facing an attacker with a katana (technically a shinai). The defender steps into a shiko-dachi, presenting the front leg to the attacker as "bait". As the attacker swings for the front leg, the defender jumps up and back, going over the attack and landing on the right leg. The attacker then brings the katana up for an overhead strike. Simultaneously, the defender jumps back to his original position, blocking the downward swing at the upper arm and pushing the attacker to the side, and then performs an elbow to the ribs, a backfist to the face, and a one-knuckle strike to the ribs.

In Kanchin, the attack comes as a front kick. The defender drops his front foot back and into a shiko-dachi, which has the effeect of moving the torso out of the "power zone". The defender then brings his front hand up under the attacker's achilles while using the rear hand to "catch" the front of the foot. (Note, this works because you've stepped back beyond the effective range of the kick). The defender then stands back up into Sanchin, using the power generated by the legs to throw the attacker backwards.

But no, we don't generally step back.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I’m just arrogant, but imho these sort of interpretations of kata are the wrong ways to be interpreted.

Foot work and stances should not be directly correlated to hands/arms in a ‘feet do X, while hands do Y.’ Manner.

It’s a much too rigid structure. Foot work teaches movement, hands teach techniques. It’s up to us each practice techniques with different footwork and stances, and we must understand that stances in most situations are only engaged very briefly and transitionary, and should not be thought of as something that needs to be held for a prolonged time period to count as ‘doing a stance’
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