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isshinryu5toforever
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 2358
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Styles: Isshin-Ryu Karate, Jidokwon Taekwondo, Kyokushinkan
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Adamo wrote: |
Isshinryu5toforever, that's a problem all martial arts have. Not just Krav Maga has a few problems. Karate has problems, taekwondo is watered down, people debate over Jeet Kune Do, etc. That's an issue in just about all hobbies and sports. That really doesn't say a whole lot other then it's your duty to find a reliable school and instructor.  |
I never said it wasn't an issue for others, but there's a difference: most Krav places bank on the fact that the IDF uses it. Very few strip mall karate guys are going to say, "Our system is used by the CIA." Because it's a bald faced lie. Krav, especially bad Krav, is sold as a complete package self-defense martial art. If you look at really crappy Karate and Taekwondo, self-defense is generally one of the last things listed. They draw people in with kids classes, exercise, and weight loss. They might even toss in some mystical stuff. The first thing that a lot of Krav places advertise is being able to defend yourself in a life or death situation. That's a much bigger issue.
As far as MMA competition, or any hard striking or throwing or grappling competition is concerned, you fight enough and you get used to the adrenaline dump. That goes for any high level competitor no matter their martial art. I'm sure Steven Lopez could kick someone in a high pressure situation, he's done it before. Karo Parysian DID throw Diego Sanchez cleanly three times during their fight. As far as getting poked in the eye or kicked in the groin, someone has to know the Japanese guy who was gouged in the eye during one of his fights so many times that he came out blind in that eye, but still one thanks to his grappling skills. I can't remember his name right now, I'll have to think about it.
Having been hit hard before is the key to knowing what you'll do when you actually get hit. Like Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." And if Mike Tyson were put in a self-defense situation, my money would be on him 100% of the time. According to the arguments that have been put forth though, he would have problems defending himself because he's just a sport competitor.
_________________
He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened.
- Tao Te Ching
"Move as swift as a wind, stay as silent as forest, attack as fierce as fire, undefeatable defense like a mountain."
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War |
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isshinryu5toforever
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 2358
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Styles: Isshin-Ryu Karate, Jidokwon Taekwondo, Kyokushinkan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, the fight was Vale Tudo 1995 Yuki Nakai vs Gerard Gordeau
_________________
He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened.
- Tao Te Ching
"Move as swift as a wind, stay as silent as forest, attack as fierce as fire, undefeatable defense like a mountain."
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, here are my thoughts on the last run of activity on this thread.
First up, there are alot of good points on both sides. To the competition issue, there is a lot to be said for the stress of comps. They mimic, to a certain degree, the adrean dump of actual conflict. This can be very useful. They are also a great lab to determine what does and doesn't work.
However, this is not the only avenue to accomplish this. It is a way. A way that is better than a lot of others, but not the only way.
Also, a ton of emphasis is placed on what happen inside the cage when x happens (eye gouge, groin kick, ect.). Let's remember, that in all cases here we are dealing with highly conditioned, highly motivated athletes, this is often not the case in real events. So, we much be careful not to read more into this one way or the other.
Since bonifides seem to have become an issue, let me start this last part by saying my last time in the ring was appx. 10 years ago in an MMA venue. Two weeks ago in a BJJ venue. Further, since my job requres it, I was hands on in the street 4 nights ago. I'm not the be all, end all of combative expeience, but I have been there.
A couple of things.
One, it's hard to have "thousands of fights" and not end up in jail as a result of any. Self defense does not happen that often, not with concious effort to avoid them. Perhaps one has a job that requires it, this is my case, and I'd stretch the definition of "fights" to get near that number. Still, it's concieveable it could happen in the right location/ profession.
Two, never, in all of the conflicts real world that I have been in, despite over two decades of training, MMA experience, ect., have I EVER taken it lightly or not been in a bit of an aroused state due to the unpredictable nature of combat outside of a ring.
Here's what I'm getting to in a round about way. Everyone seems to be arguing that "this has worked for me" Great. The things I've done have worked for me, in the ring, and with modification on the road. Great. But the point is, what I do and you do probabily doesn't look the same. There might be similarities, but we'll differ.
Again, we go back to no right answer. I'll grant, there are better answers than others. No way around it. In most cases, it's better or worse training and testing methods.
With the unpredictiable nature of real world conflict, I won't take any weapon off the table. Now, there are better and worse places to apply everything. You'll never groin strike anyone off you if he's mounted. However, you might make sure he doesn't chase you groin strike him while he's down and you're up. Methodology and application are more important almost than weapon selection.
For what it's worth. |
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MMA_Jim
Blue Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 275
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well, beyond the over emphasis on the effectiveness of said techniques, the other problem occurs that people think they can just execute the technique.
"Kick him in the groin and you'll end the fight."
Let me draw an analogy between two boxers:
"Punch him in the jaw and you'll knock him out"
Despite the intent to, boxers can throw over 1000 strikes combined in a 12 round fight and still not have the desired effects. Yet some people think all they need to do is throw a kick or a finger poke with the intention of hitting whatever soft target and thats the fight.
Again, another analogy- every woman knows that hitting a guy in the groin hurts- every one knows that they've got nails and that they're supposed to scratch their attackers eyes out. Despite this thousands upon thousands of rapes still occur every year. Biting, eye gouging, and groin kicking are things that everyone know how to do, but it would seem not to work as well in real life as some people sell it. |
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Adamo
Yellow Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 43
Styles: Taekwondo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a great website from somebody who doesn't practice MMA OR Krav Maga. He's a highly respected man in the world of violence and not just martial arts. If you wont believe what I post, you can read here.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/MMA.html#Matt
That's all I can say because I'm obviously not getting anywhere. I never said I dislike MMA or the people who practice it. But some of the very same comments you made Jim are addressed in that article. |
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MMA_Jim
Blue Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 275
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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There in lies the problem- what has this guy done that qualifies him as a "self defense" expert?
I looked at his list of previous professions- I've done them all (except for warden). They're not hard, believe me. Anyone can claim any type of street scenario expertise or experience- because its impossible to refute. So I'll go ahead with this statement:
"I have been in over 1,000 street fights, been on the recieving end of numerous gang assassination attempts, and have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun on more than a dozen scenarios. All of these experiences led me to devise the utmost system of self defense- one not based on belts, pride, tapping people out- but one for complete annihilation of my attackers. This style is not for those who wish to fight for fun, but for those who have to fight for their lives."
Now, the only difference is- you know Im full of it- but how many other guys are full of it, but still sell so many videos and have people genuinely interested in their "fighting styles." ANYONE can make a video and show a bunch of deadly eye gouges, groin strikes, and biting techniques, claim to be an expert, and look "bad" in their video (after all, they made the thing). That still doesnt mean its a good choice for learning how to fight. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| MMA_Jim wrote: |
Well, beyond the over emphasis on the effectiveness of said techniques, the other problem occurs that people think they can just execute the technique.
"Kick him in the groin and you'll end the fight."
Let me draw an analogy between two boxers:
"Punch him in the jaw and you'll knock him out"
Despite the intent to, boxers can throw over 1000 strikes combined in a 12 round fight and still not have the desired effects. Yet some people think all they need to do is throw a kick or a finger poke with the intention of hitting whatever soft target and thats the fight.
Again, another analogy- every woman knows that hitting a guy in the groin hurts- every one knows that they've got nails and that they're supposed to scratch their attackers eyes out. Despite this thousands upon thousands of rapes still occur every year. Biting, eye gouging, and groin kicking are things that everyone know how to do, but it would seem not to work as well in real life as some people sell it. |
Right. Now this is a major problem in a lot of arts. There is a certain reliance that is accepted as a given. All things being equal, there is no given for ANY tactic during a fight.
That's one leg up competitive based arts have, they constantly test their tactics v. resistance to find out how they are working. If one is progressive enough, this can also be done with safety equipment and drilling v. realistic attacks in other arts as well.
It's kind of the point I made about methodology, you HAVE to have a good one to train in no matter what you're coming out of. It also has to be safe enough to let you and your training partners all go home to train the next night.
Too much is accepted across the ma realm without being vetted first. It's particularly a problem, I'll grant you, in many RBSD systems. But not one that is insurmountable given the right equipment and methods. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterPain wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| MasterPain wrote: |
| 2 counterpoints, UFC 1 had no biting, eye gouging or fishooking. Joe Son vs Keith Hackney. |
You'll have to fill me in. I don't recall that fight. It might have been one I didn't see. |
www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY After a later crime, I feel less sympathy.
You're right. It's not often, and they're not always fight enders, but I'd still rather be hit in my belly. |
Well, I can't deny that that experience would suck. But, there are always exceptions that prove the rule. And, it this case, it was multiple strikes in a very compromised position. Ouch...
| MMM_Jim wrote: |
Well, beyond the over emphasis on the effectiveness of said techniques, the other problem occurs that people think they can just execute the technique.
"Kick him in the groin and you'll end the fight."
Let me draw an analogy between two boxers:
"Punch him in the jaw and you'll knock him out"
Despite the intent to, boxers can throw over 1000 strikes combined in a 12 round fight and still not have the desired effects. Yet some people think all they need to do is throw a kick or a finger poke with the intention of hitting whatever soft target and thats the fight.
Again, another analogy- every woman knows that hitting a guy in the groin hurts- every one knows that they've got nails and that they're supposed to scratch their attackers eyes out. Despite this thousands upon thousands of rapes still occur every year. Biting, eye gouging, and groin kicking are things that everyone know how to do, but it would seem not to work as well in real life as some people sell it. |
I agree with you here. This is a case of "saying doesn't make it so." I do think it can be beneficial to train how to exploit these opportunities when they do arise, but its tough to expect that they will happen in isolation.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
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Jay
Black Belt
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1190
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Anyone else think the guy getting hit in the groin was wearing a cup so kinda negates the argument a bit.
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The key to everything is continuity achieved by discipline. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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I don't think it negates it completely. Cup or not, that many strikes in that area consecutively are going to cause some pain and discomfort. But, how many times anymore do you see someone end up in a position like that, allowing for that many strikes to that target area to take place? Even when it was legal, you didn't see it like that, except for maybe that one time. I don't recall many others.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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on the post.
