okinawan and japanese karate

Shorinryu Sensei · Black Belt

Sorry I came on to this thread a bit late, but it looks like you've been doing quite well.

One thing I would like to mention is that you are correct by saying that many old karate masters during WWII were killed either in their service to the Japanese war machine, or as innocent civilians that were bombed on Okinawa. Very sad, and a great loss.

One master that escaped this and was untouched basically by the war, was Hohan Soken of Shorinryu Matsumurat Seito (Orthodox). Sensei Soken left Okinawa in 1924 and moved to Agentina to work as a photographer/dry cleaner, and didn't return to Okinawa until 1953. Soken Sensei died in 1983.

Soken Sensei actively taught old style Shorinryu classes in his dojo until just a few years before his death at the age of 94.

Drunken Monkey · Black Belt

excuse my ignorance on details
but i came across a snippet of info that said that one of the schools/styles of karate actually has the chinese white crane kung fu "manual/script" as its most revered book.

just want to know, do they actually practise that form/s?
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Hohan-1 · Yellow Belt

S-Te and Kirves got it all sewn up. There are a few loose ends in some of it though. As far as the term "Samurai", this Japanese term is roughly analogous to the Hogan word "Bushi" or "Peichin". For example Hohan Soken was cited by Ripley's as being the oldest living "Samurai" at one time. He was in essence of the Okinawan Peichin class and thus technically was a samurai.

ShuriTe (Shorin Ryu) in it's orthodox form (Seito) was influenced by Ti/Tuite/Gyakute or indigenous Okinawan fighting, Shaolin Chuan Shu, AND Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, the Samurai art of the Satsuma Clan, the clan which ran Okinawa after the Japanese occupation. Due to his position as head of the Royal Palace Guard at Shuri castle, Sokon Matsumura was invited to learn this Japanese samurai style and became a Shihan in it. The current master of Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu when asked how much of an influence Jigen Ryu had on Karate (at least Matsumura's ShuriTe) exclaimed "no doubt that the influence was significant, but which style influenced which is the main question"! I've always found that statement to be really interesting.

So most likely Samurai stuff was influenced by AND influenced Toudi, at least Matsumura's (Hohan Soken's style) that is. I'd like to add that Kirves is one of the most knoweldgable karate-ka I've seen on any of these forums. His understanding of modern and classical budo/bujutsu is exemplary. Out of all the Japanese systems Kyokushinkai gets my vote as the best! Sosai Oyama would be proud!

As for the Hakutsuru (WHITE CRANE) kata. Hohan Soken was the only one taught this rare form. He trained in Taiwan for some years to better undertsand this "family" form which was passed to his uncle Nabe via his gandfather Sokon Matsumura. The Hakutsuru is seen only in the Matsumura Seito form of Shorin. It is a very simple form with many subtleties. But yes, in reference to your query, Shaolin and Shorin are very related (Sokon Mastumura trained there [the Fukian temple] for over 15 years, but only the Orthodox form bears any true resemblence to its Southern Shaolin predecessor.

Hope this helps. Have a good week.
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Traditional=Eternal
Nidan, Hakutsurukan

Shorinryu Sensei · Black Belt

Drunken Monkey · Black Belt

something came up in another thread.

i'll just ask it properly here cos i seem to get sensible replies here.

can anyone tell me more about something that has been refered to here on this site as
shaolin kenpo/kempo karate.

firstly, what is the difference between the spellings of kenpo/kempo? (i'm guessing it's just that, a spelling thing)

and what about the name.
ive always been confused about it because it seems to be a mix of various names from various languages.

my biggest "problem", if you can call it that, is the use of shaolin AND karate in the name.

as you probably know, the countries have a bad history and there is no way that either country would use each others arts' names like that.

no chinese martial art would refer to karate and no karate would use the word shaolin (for a start they have their equivilant in the form of shorin).

so, what can you tell me about this?
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post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are.

"When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."

Goju1 · Blue Belt

aefibird · Black Belt

Sasori_Te · Black Belt

Shotokan doesn't utilize weapons because Shotokan was designed to be another sport for the mainland Japanese Phys. Ed. system. You wouldn't want the kiddies to be bringing weapons to school so this aspect of training wasn't included when Funakoshi started teaching Shotokan instead of Shorin Ryu. That's the condensed version *L*
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A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.

aefibird · Black Belt

Sasori_Te · Black Belt

I actually shot myself in the foot with that last statement. Before anyone else says anything, some Shotokan schools may have adopted the use of traditional weapons. Everything has become a little mixed and muddled these days. The Wado Ryu and Uechi Ryu schools that I'm familiar with all have weapons programs of a traditional flavor. You just need to look around. You can probably find a Shotokan school that teaches weapons if you look for it. IF not, you sound a little disgruntled with your present style. Switch schools to one that has what you want. It's not a crime and what's a few more years to start again in a journey that can last a lifetime anyway? Good Luck
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A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.

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