okinawan and japanese karate

Drunken Monkey · Black Belt

i hear a lot of guys here say that japanese karate is not as good as okinawan karate because it doesn't teach the classical, traditional, true (or whatever you want to call it) bunkai.

but how much of this is true?
what differences are there?
why are there differences?
when did these come about?
is it a case of bad style or bad teachers?

i'm after a history lesson here so feel free to ramble.

Kirves · Black Belt

No, we don't say "not as good", we just say "different". The Japanese teach less kata bunkai, and more tournament kumite. Okinawans focus less on tournament stuff and more on kata bunkai. It is a matter of taste which one you want to study. Okinawan is more "pure" to karate's roots, while Japanese is a more modern approach, suitable to school phys. ed. teaching.

And more about your guestions (why, when, where...): The differences started to form during the following years after karate was first introduced on mainland Japan. The Okinawans had the "old-school" style of teaching, but in Japan, things were treated in a different manner.

Budoka · White Belt

Kirves,

Well said. The differences can also trace their lineage back to the introduction of the art to Honshu.
Funakoshi Sensei had to change or simplify some of the techniques to fit the Japanese culture or the school environmemt in which he was teaching. An example of this is the extent that the Japanese use the closed hand while many Okanawan styles still develop open hand techniques.

I once read a great article about how in the early days many of the Japanese didn't like to train directly with G. Funakoshi because they said he hit to hard, so they trained with his son instead.
I'm not sure if its true, but is is a neat story.

Budoka
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Kirves · Black Belt

Yes, IMO the biggest reasons for the differences are:

- Japanese modified the curriculum so that it can be taught to masses of young people in school (Okinawans taught small groups of adults privately)

- When it was taught in schools and universities, tournaments quickly spawned and kumite became a focus

- Japanese added Zen/Budo philosophy to it, which didn't catch on so fast on Okinawa

- WW2 and the resulting depression and lack of legitimate training created a "vacuum" in Japan. Few kept any contact with their earlier masters on Okinawa and when they finally resumed training, they kinda continued on their own instead of returning to their Okinawan karate-roots

- When the Japanese form of karate became popular, few even knew that there was anything different

Also, later some Okinawan styles became a bit like Japanese styles, and some Japanese styles became more like Okinawan styles, so nothing is black and white any more.

Sasori_Te · Black Belt

Here's some of the history that you wanted. I'm not going to reference my books so this is going to be from memory. I'll give you some good references at the end of my reply. In 1922 Funakoshi was invited to Japan to teach there. He was in charge of introducing karate to the school system. He thought that the techniques as they were traditionally taught might be inappropriate for school aged children so he modified them. He also, around this same time, changed the characters for karate to mean "empty hand" instead of "China hand" as they were in Okinawa. This was because of poor relations between China and Japan at the time. Although if you ask a Japanese Shotokan instructor they will as likely as not say that it was to reflect the new spiritual aspect of karate-do (B***S***). Most of the changes were politically motivated. Karate was turned into a sport. Funakoshi's original art was Shorin Ryu, these changes were the start of Shotokan and sport karate. The belt system was introduced a little later and there we have the start of "modern karate". This is a very simplified version but still accurate. Try the book "Okinawa Island of Karate". From what I can understand, Funakoshi wasn't very respected by his peers for his karate technique although he was reputedly a good teacher. Kirves was correct that the styles have now become a bit muddled between Japanese and Okinawan. Some schools still offer a more traditional Okinawan approach, but these are few and far between. I hope this helps a little.
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Sasori_Te · Black Belt

I almost forgot. Try Funakoshi's "Karate-Do My Way of Life". He admits to a few of these things that I've spoken of. Also from his writing you will be able to get a better feel for the atmosphere of repression in Japan at the time he was teaching. You might also try some of Don Draeger's research works. Good luck.
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A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.

Drunken Monkey · Black Belt

shorin ryu...
kinda leads to my next question.

the characters for shorin ryu are the ones for shaolin kuen (in chinese).

how closely are these related?

again, feel free to ramble.
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Sasori_Te · Black Belt

Very closely related. It is not a coincedence that the characters are the same. I'll elaborate more tomorrow when I have more time.
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A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.

Drunken Monkey · Black Belt

ok.
thanks by the way, for all your replies.

much appreciated.
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post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are.

"When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."

Sasori_Te · Black Belt

The following is a quote from "Okinawa Island of Karate" by George W. Alexander:

"The Shorin Ryu has a complex evolution and Geneaology. The term shorin itself is a key to understanding the evolution and geneaology of this major school of Okinawan karate. Shorin is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese characters for Shaolin. In both Japanese and Chinese these characters refer to the Shaolin Temple of China. In Chinese, shaolin means 'young forest'. Likewise, in Japanese shorin also means young forest."

So you see the characters both refer to the Shaolin Temple in China. Tode Sakugawa was called Tode (Chinese Hand) because of his training in Chinese Kempo from the Fukien Province area in China. He is also the first person to use the term "karate" also meaning "Chinese hand" as the book goes on to say: "It is commonly believed that this differentiated him from those who practiced te or the native Okinawan fighting form and substantiates the theory that Okinawan te merged with Chinese kempo to form Okinawan karate."

I hope this answers more of your questions.
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