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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2330
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a chance to look it over yet? The suspense of your opinion is killing me. Hopefully I didn't talk you into throwing $25 down the drain.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides Sensei8's style and maybe a few others most styles do not have testing requirements past Rokudan or Nanadan.
Some stop all learning and testing after Godan. I happen to know a few.
Either way most organizations promote based on time, contribution to the art and based on ones students numbers and grades past a certain rank.

In my art you are tested up to Nanadan and from that point on it's pretty much political and just handed to you. You can as Sensei8 has eluded in past posts, request to be tested. But to be quite honest it is only for the benifit of the recipient of the rank. The promotion is in most cases a forgone conclusion.
We do however have a voluntary Kodansha advanced class in which the participants learn various additional Kata, advanced historical research of the art, and further knowledge of Ti and White Crane (Hakutsuru). This is not for rank and is not tested but rather for the betterment of the participant and knowledge of the art. Our Shinshii thought it was a good idea to further ones training after you get to a certain point as to not stagnate and our board has carried on that tradition.
It used to be only available to Hachidan and above but it has been opened up to the rank of Rokudan and above since we do not have a Kudan ranking since Shinshii decided to retire.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2123


PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While politics and belt ranking disagreements continue, the title of "Masters" has been passed on to the "Golfing World"

Masters has a conatation with slavery, so in some community's it doesn't sit well.

In the U.K many years ago, the youngest boy was called Master, followed by his surname; example: Master Smith.

Point being, attitudes change. Calling Chuck Norris, "Master Norris" might sound a tad theatrically pretentious. After all masters have been abolished in America.

Belt ranking (eventually) transforms in to a marketing tool for the style and the practitioner.

Master is an Asian title for very high respect so is "Guru" such as "Guru Dan Inosanto"

Master Wong (on YouTube) uses the label to his advantage. Well done Master Wong!!!!

Could be said that Master Wong is being self righteous or elevating himself, No!

Asian martial art students will call him Master Wong anyway out of total respect; if the name fits...
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14265
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Besides Sensei8's style and maybe a few others most styles do not have testing requirements past Rokudan or Nanadan.
Some stop all learning and testing after Godan. I happen to know a few.
Either way most organizations promote based on time, contribution to the art and based on ones students numbers and grades past a certain rank.

In my art you are tested up to Nanadan and from that point on it's pretty much political and just handed to you. You can as Sensei8 has eluded in past posts, request to be tested. But to be quite honest it is only for the benifit of the recipient of the rank. The promotion is in most cases a forgone conclusion.
We do however have a voluntary Kodansha advanced class in which the participants learn various additional Kata, advanced historical research of the art, and further knowledge of Ti and White Crane (Hakutsuru). This is not for rank and is not tested but rather for the betterment of the participant and knowledge of the art. Our Shinshii thought it was a good idea to further ones training after you get to a certain point as to not stagnate and our board has carried on that tradition.
It used to be only available to Hachidan and above but it has been opened up to the rank of Rokudan and above since we do not have a Kudan ranking since Shinshii decided to retire.

To the bold type above...

While I did request my Kudan testing cycle, and I did that because the SKKA was trying to force the Kudan on me for the sake of our By-Laws for those elected to the Kaicho post. Therefore, I believe that my Kudan testing cycle wasn't for my benefit, albeit, for the benefit of those of my fellow Higher Hierarchy members because they were so desperate to follow the By-Laws to the nth degree. I wasn't going to allow that ever!!

Let me add this...they were so desperate to have me a Kudan, they would've passed me no matter what...and that bothers me a lot. I believe their intent was honorable, but a small voice in my head, tells me that their integrity might not have been, and my Kudan might of been that forgone conclusion before the testing cycle even began, with one exception of Greg Forsythe...he was on my side from day one as regards to my Kudan.

I use to always tease them by calling the SKKA...As the World Turns...sometimes they acted as though they were the stars of a soap opera, and I HATED THAT, as did Greg.



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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14265
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
While politics and belt ranking disagreements continue, the title of "Masters" has been passed on to the "Golfing World"

Masters has a conatation with slavery, so in some community's it doesn't sit well.

In the U.K many years ago, the youngest boy was called Master, followed by his surname; example: Master Smith.

Point being, attitudes change. Calling Chuck Norris, "Master Norris" might sound a tad theatrically pretentious. After all masters have been abolished in America.

Belt ranking (eventually) transforms in to a marketing tool for the style and the practitioner.

Master is an Asian title for very high respect so is "Guru" such as "Guru Dan Inosanto"

Master Wong (on YouTube) uses the label to his advantage. Well done Master Wong!!!!

Could be said that Master Wong is being self righteous or elevating himself, No!

Asian martial art students will call him Master Wong anyway out of total respect; if the name fits...

While Godan might be considered the Master level, and with that, many insist on being addressed as such without ambiguity and reservations, I hate that, and I refuse to be addressed in that manner, even though our style uses that distinction for Godan.

And it's true, "Master" is used quite a lot in many professional positions, and I've no problems with those distinctions. It's wanting to be address by the title of "Master", as a person, because, for me, there's only one Master, and I'm not Him; his name is Jesus.

Master Bob or Master Mitcham or Master Robert...makes me want to hurl on myself; just who do I think that I am...if I was to demand this of other people!? While being addressed by Master as their nom de voyage, it's just not for me.


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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2123


PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese martial arts and masters can differ very much from Japanese masters.

This is because of the benevolence factor of Chinese Confucianism. Could also throw in the communist political mind set in to the mix.

Whereas Japanese culture compartmentalize and organize to perfection. Competions are better to have a draw outcome, than a winner and loser situation, due to the shame of losing can cause great suffering.

I believe a master must have just a few qualities no matter the culture, they all choose the difficult path and never the easy chair.

Must possess a profound understanding of rivalry.

Must possess a profound understanding of human nature.

Must possess a profound understanding of right from wrong.

Must possess a profound understanding of mother nature and Yin/Yang principles in our known universe.

Must posses a great sense of humor, in this way there will always be an alternative perspective of the truth.

Must posses a great sense of understanding to the true value of things.

Must practice a martial art occasionally to keep up appearances.

Must posses a title of master or be called a master by others, then to find the same master inside, only to find oneself scratching one's head and wondering, Yes! I'm just scratching the surface of a giant redwood martial art tree; going to have to practice harder for the next 10 years or so...

10 years later, Joins a martial art forum on the internet, only to find out that the giant redwood martial art tree has grown alot taller than it was.

Seriously, don't take the title of master too seriously! It's just a way for other to label something that they themselves don't know or alternatively you are a master and didn't know it till now! "Congratulations"
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
While politics and belt ranking disagreements continue, the title of "Masters" has been passed on to the "Golfing World"

Masters has a conatation with slavery, so in some community's it doesn't sit well.

In the U.K many years ago, the youngest boy was called Master, followed by his surname; example: Master Smith.

Point being, attitudes change. Calling Chuck Norris, "Master Norris" might sound a tad theatrically pretentious. After all masters have been abolished in America.

Belt ranking (eventually) transforms in to a marketing tool for the style and the practitioner.

Master is an Asian title for very high respect so is "Guru" such as "Guru Dan Inosanto"

Master Wong (on YouTube) uses the label to his advantage. Well done Master Wong!!!!

Could be said that Master Wong is being self righteous or elevating himself, No!

Asian martial art students will call him Master Wong anyway out of total respect; if the name fits...


Alan,

I do not like the title of Master because it's very meaning means you have mastered.

In most arts Godan is the rank at which you are considered a master. This gives me a chuckle because you still have so much to learn. How then can you have mastered the art if you do not yet know all that the art contains?

I personally think this is another term to make Americans feel like they have a leg up on their juniors. Kinda like calling themselves Renshi (don't get me started on this!).

I have been studying the arts for over three decades and can not claim to have mastered anything as I am constantly learning.
My Shinshii studied the art for well over 6 decades and he always said that to master the art would take a thousand life times and that he was merely a student of the arts.

The word master denotes you have mastered. If you have mastered an art and have nothing left to learn then call yourself master. I personally feel this is not possible as there is always something more to learn.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2123


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who decides when a person should be called a "master" ?

Different style have different levels of when a person should be considered a master.

Personally, I don't care for labels or nicknames, call me what you want, I try to respect everyone equally no matter there given title.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27636
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the labels that come along with ranks in some styles, either. My organization is like this. At 4th Dan, my title is "Jr. Master." I don't care for this, and thankfully am not addressed this way. I'm just referred to as Mr. Walker, and I prefer it to stay that way.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 897

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sit at 3rd Dan, just like I sat at 2nd and 1st. Waiting until my instructors worry about ranking. I was told at my 3rd Dan promotion that it was long over due. I hadn't worried about it, but I'm aware of it. There is an instructor up the road from my parent's home that is a 5th dan, as he told me in a conversation "...with over 20 years of training in 3 traditional arts". He got his shodan through a good instructor(I was invited to take part in his grading as a yudansha), and when the instructor moved, he joined a national organization. I forget the title he uses now, but I think he forgets I had been graded to nidan, after a decade of not testing, before he began to train at all. And I am not that far over the 20 year mark.

I've seen the grade inflation, and I think it was around when I started training. It was just a little harder to verify, going back to our benefits of the internet for MA thread else where, than it is now. And it seems like a lot of those who grade inflate get really caught up in the titles attached to the grades as well. Our small group is pretty simple, on the dojo floor a dan grade is addressed as sir/ma'am or Mr./Ms./Mrs. Blank, or sensei. When I began to train with them, addressing anyone other than the chief instructor that way was strange, but now it's old hat. I address senior instructors/black belts by title when setting appropriate, not because I am required to do so, but because it is respectful and they have earned my respect.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine
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