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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14265
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
It was just like that when I first started in the MA back in 1964. Territorial rights existed, at least they did in the San Fernando Valley in California. Distance between schools had to be respected and if one wanted to open a dojo within an existing territory, permission had to be given. However, this unwritten rule wasn't always obeyed.

My Soke opened up the Shindokan Hombu in Canoga Park, CA, and in that, he was visited by the owner of a Shotokan Sensei, and told my Soke that he couldn't be there because the aforementioned sensei said that he was there first. Well, my Soke just laughed at him and asked him to join us. With that, that Sensei raised his voice, and Soke told him to leave until he could show some better manners.

I can only think that this happens because said school of the MA is afraid that they'll lose students. In that, I believe that if their karate-do is solid, then they've nothing to be concerned about. Let your karate-do speak for itself; proof is on the floor...ALWAYS, imho!!



See, that to me just sounds silly. Could you imagine the owner of a grocery store or a gas station going into a newly opened competitor and telling the owner they couldn't operate their business there because it was "their" territory? They'd be laughed at. Business competition is to be expected and is healthy for the marketplace. It's what keeps prices reasonable and quality high. I can't see how it would be different in the martial arts business.

I can only imagine that those MA masters that came from Japan or Okinawa were trying to carry on said tradition of way-back then, so, possibly it was back that way for them at one time, and they tried it, with minimum success, to only find out that that wasn't going to fly here in the USA.

My Soke, being born and raised in Okinawa, never once tried to be that way, and as I've mentioned before, wouldn't allow others from the old country to try it on him.

I suppose that in the old days here in the USA, many business faced that very same thing, no matter the business. The strong-arm tactics here in the USA way back before my time, were felt from all business, and those who gave in, well, they paid for protection of some type.

As silly as it might've sounded, it was reality, more than one could even imagine.



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hammer
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 361

Styles: Kyokushin, TKD

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the inputs. Right now my gut is telling me that my days in the current club are numbered, but it's hard because my current club does have more variety in classes, class times, etc. Also, despite the way that the head master has treated some (including those who started the new school) there still is a sense of loyalty that comes from being a part of the organization for so long.

There is also a financial risk in that I usually pay for dues in advance, so I'm pre-paid until the spring. There are also a few additional classes I've signed up and paid for as well. If I make the move to leave I don't know if the instructor would be willing to refund that money. If not I'd be out a couple hundred dollars.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
Thanks for the inputs. Right now my gut is telling me that my days in the current club are numbered, but it's hard because my current club does have more variety in classes, class times, etc. Also, despite the way that the head master has treated some (including those who started the new school) there still is a sense of loyalty that comes from being a part of the organization for so long.

There is also a financial risk in that I usually pay for dues in advance, so I'm pre-paid until the spring. There are also a few additional classes I've signed up and paid for as well. If I make the move to leave I don't know if the instructor would be willing to refund that money. If not I'd be out a couple hundred dollars.
Your hesitation is understandable and from what I can infer from what you say I don't think that he would refund you. Sit on it for a time and think about it and make sure to keep us updated.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14265
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
hammer wrote:
Thanks for the inputs. Right now my gut is telling me that my days in the current club are numbered, but it's hard because my current club does have more variety in classes, class times, etc. Also, despite the way that the head master has treated some (including those who started the new school) there still is a sense of loyalty that comes from being a part of the organization for so long.

There is also a financial risk in that I usually pay for dues in advance, so I'm pre-paid until the spring. There are also a few additional classes I've signed up and paid for as well. If I make the move to leave I don't know if the instructor would be willing to refund that money. If not I'd be out a couple hundred dollars.
Your hesitation is understandable and from what I can infer from what you say I don't think that he would refund you. Sit on it for a time and think about it and make sure to keep us updated.

Yeah, I don't think you'll get a refund, and if you're under some type of a law binding contract, I'm sure that the contract spells it out concerning refunds and the like.


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hammer
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 361

Styles: Kyokushin, TKD

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to the head master and told him that I attended the ceremony. I did tell him it was out of support for the person who was promoted. He was not happy about it but the fact that I was there in street clothes seemed to make the difference. I got "chewed out" a bit but I'm still with the club for now.

Apparently he sees the split with the people that established the other school (who had been his students for many years) as a betrayal of his trust, and while I don't know (or want to know) the details, I can understand his perspective. The rules of the club (which I now know) are to ask him before going to another dojo in any capacity. There are schools which he has a good relationship with, and going to those would likely not be a problem, but in those cases he would contact the head of that school and check with them beforehand.

He did relate one story from our recent tournament. He runs a separate class where there are a few BBs from other schools, and when they wanted to attend our tournament and participate in BB events he told them to talk to their instructor first to make sure it was OK. Turns out it was not and if they had attended the instructor could have removed them without any refund of the remaining dues they pre-paid on their contract.

Apparently there are potential liability insurance issues as well if I were to go and participate in any activities at another dojo and I were to get hurt. Never occurred to me because I know I take any risk of injury from MA, but I guess my head master has to have his legal bases covered.

The rule seems limiting, but I realize that I can either follow those rules and stay in the club or leave the club. At this point I decided to abide by the rules and will make sure I ask before going to another dojo. I did tell the head master that I was friends with a lot of the people in the other school, no issues with that...but he draws the line at actually going to their dojo.

So I'm threading the needle for now, mainly because even though I think my head master's reactions are a bit extreme I don't want to give up on a club that has been a part of my life for over 14 years. Will that change at some point? Perhaps, but for now I'll stick around and see how things go.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
I went to the head master and told him that I attended the ceremony. I did tell him it was out of support for the person who was promoted. He was not happy about it but the fact that I was there in street clothes seemed to make the difference. I got "chewed out" a bit but I'm still with the club for now.

Apparently he sees the split with the people that established the other school (who had been his students for many years) as a betrayal of his trust, and while I don't know (or want to know) the details, I can understand his perspective. The rules of the club (which I now know) are to ask him before going to another dojo in any capacity. There are schools which he has a good relationship with, and going to those would likely not be a problem, but in those cases he would contact the head of that school and check with them beforehand.

He did relate one story from our recent tournament. He runs a separate class where there are a few BBs from other schools, and when they wanted to attend our tournament and participate in BB events he told them to talk to their instructor first to make sure it was OK. Turns out it was not and if they had attended the instructor could have removed them without any refund of the remaining dues they pre-paid on their contract.

Apparently there are potential liability insurance issues as well if I were to go and participate in any activities at another dojo and I were to get hurt. Never occurred to me because I know I take any risk of injury from MA, but I guess my head master has to have his legal bases covered.

The rule seems limiting, but I realize that I can either follow those rules and stay in the club or leave the club. At this point I decided to abide by the rules and will make sure I ask before going to another dojo. I did tell the head master that I was friends with a lot of the people in the other school, no issues with that...but he draws the line at actually going to their dojo.

So I'm threading the needle for now, mainly because even though I think my head master's reactions are a bit extreme I don't want to give up on a club that has been a part of my life for over 14 years. Will that change at some point? Perhaps, but for now I'll stick around and see how things go.
Good luck to you hammer.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27636
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: School Splits and Loyalty Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
As I'm guessing can happen in schools, we had a falling out between the head master and a few senior BBs around a year ago. Those BBs subsequently started up their own school and all indications are that it's working out well for them. There were a few BBs and students who left to go to the new school.

I have known the BBs running the new school since I have been taking MA classes (close to 14 years now) and consider them and others who left to be friends. I don't know all of the details of the split and I don't ask, I just wish them well.

In the new school, one of the BBs who has many years experience was recently promoted to Master. I decided to attend his promotion ceremony as a friend of his but I made sure not to wear my Gi. Unfortunately, another BB from the club I go to did attend in their Gi and when the head master found out (through Facebook postings) this person was kicked out of the club. I'm in a "don't ask don't tell" mode at this point but I feel my status at the club is potentially in jeopardy.

At this point I'm still loyal to my club but I am concerned about the head master's interpretation of club loyalty. It's not like any of us who attended the ceremony went to work out with the other school, we all went as a friend of the person being promoted.

Any thoughts? I actually hate this situation, I just want to go and work out...


Don't you just love politics? Everyone is so sensitive....

At any rate, I hope your instructor doesn't raise a stink about you being there to support your friends. I think its unfortunate that your club associate was kicked out for attending in uniform. I guess, though, if he does find out and decides to kick you out, you could go to your friends' club.

Personally, I think people get to wound up over these sorts of things. Why let something like this trouble you in life? But, perhpaps its insecurity?
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
I went to the head master and told him that I attended the ceremony. I did tell him it was out of support for the person who was promoted. He was not happy about it but the fact that I was there in street clothes seemed to make the difference. I got "chewed out" a bit but I'm still with the club for now.

Apparently he sees the split with the people that established the other school (who had been his students for many years) as a betrayal of his trust, and while I don't know (or want to know) the details, I can understand his perspective. The rules of the club (which I now know) are to ask him before going to another dojo in any capacity. There are schools which he has a good relationship with, and going to those would likely not be a problem, but in those cases he would contact the head of that school and check with them beforehand.

He did relate one story from our recent tournament. He runs a separate class where there are a few BBs from other schools, and when they wanted to attend our tournament and participate in BB events he told them to talk to their instructor first to make sure it was OK. Turns out it was not and if they had attended the instructor could have removed them without any refund of the remaining dues they pre-paid on their contract.

Apparently there are potential liability insurance issues as well if I were to go and participate in any activities at another dojo and I were to get hurt. Never occurred to me because I know I take any risk of injury from MA, but I guess my head master has to have his legal bases covered.

The rule seems limiting, but I realize that I can either follow those rules and stay in the club or leave the club. At this point I decided to abide by the rules and will make sure I ask before going to another dojo. I did tell the head master that I was friends with a lot of the people in the other school, no issues with that...but he draws the line at actually going to their dojo.

So I'm threading the needle for now, mainly because even though I think my head master's reactions are a bit extreme I don't want to give up on a club that has been a part of my life for over 14 years. Will that change at some point? Perhaps, but for now I'll stick around and see how things go.


He/she clearly doesn't seem like the person that is happy to see students who want to broaden their studies of the martial arts.

you did the right thing by your friend to go and support them at the ceremony. I have attended many ceremonies to support my friends being promoted. My sensei doesn't mind at all, that i do that purely because he knows that all of his students will do the right thing for the school and their own friends. He has significant trust in us to show respect when we visit other schools. He taught us to be polite, respectful and follow that dojo's rules and also follow our dojo's rules (if there are contradicting rules we will follow the host schools rule). that way we can be very tough on our behavior.

When my sensei left our old organisation, there was no bitterness between him and his old sensei (even though he was not a very nice person to everyone). Although there is some competitiveness between the schools, as his sensei hates (for some weird reason) other karate schools that were started by his former students.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.

I hope all goes well for you!!




Thats interesting! cause around the corner from my dojo there is another karate school and they have never had any issues with us (well yet at least).

The main reason why we haven't had any issues with them was that we all shared the love for karate and martial arts.

Both schools are Goju-Ryu Karate also.

No issues because the two of you have solid karate-do, and you both allow the floor to speak for itself.

I can see a landlord who owns a strip mall, for example, not allowing another school of the MA rent from him/her because a proprietary agreement might already exist between landlord and existing renters. However, across the street, under a different landlord, well, bring it on and allow the floor to speak for itself.


I agree that both our schools have a solid karate-do. Both sensei's sat down together to discuss managing a school and how to ensure the success of both schools. We have an understanding that we respect each school for who they are. and that we support each other as much as possible.

at some point both schools are planning a little mini tournament between the schools and have trophies for the winners. purely out of fun and respect of both schools.
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AusRonin
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 12


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
There is also a financial risk in that I usually pay for dues in advance, so I'm pre-paid until the spring. There are also a few additional classes I've signed up and paid for as well. If I make the move to leave I don't know if the instructor would be willing to refund that money. If not I'd be out a couple hundred dollars.


As a paying student you are a customer. Describe any other activity or service that would say "as my customer you will not leave, you will not attend other suppliers events, you will not be seen seeing the customers of other suppliers..." you get the idea. You pay for training and instruction. Full stop. You don't pay to be a prisoner of the organisation for life. Unless of course you signed a contract for life in blood

Also I would ask both sides "why have these senior belts left?". There may well be a good reason why they left that would justify them leaving. This knowledge may actual lead you to question why you are staying...
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"Karate has no philosophy. Some people think that the tradition of Karate came from Buddhism and Karate has a connection to the absolute, space and universe, but I don't believe that. My philosophy is to knock my opponent out, due to the use of only one technique. One finishing blow!" - Mikio Yahara
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