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pers
Purple Belt
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject: Shotokan v Kyukoshin is like Muhammad Ali v Sonny Liston Reply with quote

You want to know the diferrence between shotokan and kyukoshin then watch the famous fight between these two heavyweight champions .

Sonny Liston was the undisputed boxing champ and Ali a young challenger ,Liston a fearsome and extremely powerful boxer who would just stand in the middle of the ring and pound his opponents with blows that not many could take and he used to knock his opponents out .

But he had no answer for Ali's footwork as Ali refused to fight the Liston way and stand up face to face and exchange blows with him ,he would have had no chance fighting that way ,instead he used his great footwork to stay out of his range and his punishment ,go in and out using angles and his great distance and timing and eventualy knock Liston out .

This is what shotokan is trying to teach ...avoid getting hit and use footwork and correct distancing and timing to hit the opponent at his most disadvantagous position , unlike Kyokoshin who fight in a Sonny Liston way .

Hope this example make it clear for those who want to know the diferrence between the two styles .

http://youtu.be/uzWynvBLJ4I

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Kuma
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Joined: 03 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really an accurate interpretation. When you have a system that regularly trains fighting, you tend to get very individualized styles. You have your fighters who focus on footwork and angles to stay in close. You have your power guys who can take a hard shot and give a harder one. You have your dynamic fighters who favor flashy techniques. You have your efficient guys who just punch and kick low. You even have some who are brilliant kickers and who use virtually no punches at all, fighting from kicking range exclusively. Much in the same way that Liston and Ali both came from one system, you have similar fighters in Kyokushin.

If you can't see a good use of footwork, distancing, and timing in this video, I'd question whether you actually know what you're looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huB1Y4pzUjI

Strange that you would claim that Shotokan's footwork is just like Ali's too, when Shotokan competitions tend to be notoriously linear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEprW3db2kE
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
Not really an accurate interpretation. When you have a system that regularly trains fighting, you tend to get very individualized styles. You have your fighters who focus on footwork and angles to stay in close. You have your power guys who can take a hard shot and give a harder one. You have your dynamic fighters who favor flashy techniques. You have your efficient guys who just punch and kick low. You even have some who are brilliant kickers and who use virtually no punches at all, fighting from kicking range exclusively. Much in the same way that Liston and Ali both came from one system, you have similar fighters in Kyokushin.

If you can't see a good use of footwork, distancing, and timing in this video, I'd question whether you actually know what you're looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huB1Y4pzUjI

Strange that you would claim that Shotokan's footwork is just like Ali's too, when Shotokan competitions tend to be notoriously linear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEprW3db2kE


I would have to agree with Kuma, I have Shotokan come to my dojo and they are so rigid, compared to Kyokushin who are very fluid.
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pers
Purple Belt
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:

If you can't see a good use of footwork, distancing, and timing in this video, I'd question whether you actually know what you're looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huB1Y4pzUjI

Strange that you would claim that Shotokan's footwork is just like Ali's too, when Shotokan competitions tend to be notoriously linear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEprW3db2kE


No not really ...I can't see those at all in the video you posted , I see two people not worried about being punched in the face having an unrealistic guard and stance . where is in shotokan you try and stay out of the range of your opponent becuase they will knock you out with a face punch if you don't !

My comparison with Ali was about fluidity versus static ,of course Ali was a boxer and was not allowed to kick and was not worried about being kicked so hence ...

and to Dobersky ... there are tons of clubs and groups of shotokan and the diference between them ranges in quality from a scale of 1 to 100 ...so which ones did you meet ?

I have also seen many rigid shotokan people and also very dynamic and fluid ones too .

Like many others in other styles they are stuck at around shodan ( I am being generous) level and never progressed beyond and just keep repeating the same thing over and over ...

If you watch this kumite you may notice the difference in their guard as they are trying to protect their faces as best as they can and when they can't it can be knock out .

http://youtu.be/3oQ5ROZC4Yc
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Kuma
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
No not really ...I can't see those at all in the video you posted , I see two people not worried about being punched in the face having an unrealistic guard and stance . where is in shotokan you try and stay out of the range of your opponent becuase they will knock you out with a face punch if you don't !


So their stance and guard is unrealistic (despite being the adopted stance of virtually all striking arts that fight full contact) but lunging forward in an over-committed zenkutsu dachi is realistic? Do you have any experience fighting outside of Shotokan or is that the basis for your entire comparison? Because I find it very strange you don't see where Narushima is setting up his angles and using the distance to his advantage. He is quite good at it, hence why at a mere 70kg/154 pounds he could take on and beat much heavier fighters.

You are also forgetting that Kyokushin and other knockdown styles have tournaments for those wearing gloves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcbZNyZWgDM

You can see though how adding the gloves makes it more like kickboxing and less like karate, hence why the preference for knockdown still remains as it's still true to the intentions of Mas Oyama (who, interestingly enough, earned his black belt in Shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi himself). The reason why it may not look as appealing to Shotokan fighters who prefer fighting from the outside is Oyama also had an extensive background in Goju Ryu which favors infighting and was a big influence on Kyokushin jissen kumite.

Quote:
My comparison with Ali was about fluidity versus static ,of course Ali was a boxer and was not allowed to kick and was not worried about being kicked so hence ...


And you honestly feel the Shotokan fighters in the video I posted were more fluid?
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bassaiguy
Orange Belt
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Maine, USA
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTVhbL3jGs

Guess who's Shotokan.
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Kuma
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll let pers say his piece first. What are your thoughts on that video bassaiguy?
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pers
Purple Belt
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
No not really ...I can't see those at all in the video you posted , I see two people not worried about being punched in the face having an unrealistic guard and stance . where is in shotokan you try and stay out of the range of your opponent becuase they will knock you out with a face punch if you don't !


So their stance and guard is unrealistic (despite being the adopted stance of virtually all striking arts that fight full contact) but lunging forward in an over-committed zenkutsu dachi is realistic? Do you have any experience fighting outside of Shotokan or is that the basis for your entire comparison? Because I find it very strange you don't see where Narushima is setting up his angles and using the distance to his advantage. He is quite good at it, hence why at a mere 70kg/154 pounds he could take on and beat much heavier fighters.

You are also forgetting that Kyokushin and other knockdown styles have tournaments for those wearing gloves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcbZNyZWgDM

You can see though how adding the gloves makes it more like kickboxing and less like karate, hence why the preference for knockdown still remains as it's still true to the intentions of Mas Oyama (who, interestingly enough, earned his black belt in Shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi himself). The reason why it may not look as appealing to Shotokan fighters who prefer fighting from the outside is Oyama also had an extensive background in Goju Ryu which favors infighting and was a big influence on Kyokushin jissen kumite.

Quote:
My comparison with Ali was about fluidity versus static ,of course Ali was a boxer and was not allowed to kick and was not worried about being kicked so hence ...


And you honestly feel the Shotokan fighters in the video I posted were more fluid?


Is that his name Nurishima ? he is great fighter ,very powerful as I saw pounding the bag wit his punches and kicks ,we all have those exceptionally gifted people ,you put him in a MMA cage and I am sure he can still handle himself .
I am sure he knows all too well about angles and distancing and timing ,I was questioning the adopted guard and stance in a kyukoshin kumite as general which does set bad habits asthey are not worried about theirfaces being blown away with face punch.

I saw the second video with gloves and you are right they are more like kick boxers , I had never seen this type of kumite before from kyokoshin ,atleast they are protecting their heads against punches here although their techniques are more kick boxing than karate .

an over commited zenkutsu dachi with a lung or reverse punch is just as bad ,but well commited one is extremely powerful and devastating .

You had to go back to 1985 to bring up your example of shotokan kumite ?! did you see the one I posted ? although even in the one you posted these fighters are aware of each others intetions and speed and trying to close each other down . No they don't look very fluid in the one you posted from 30 years ago that is becuase of the reason I mentioned above but what about the one I posted from JKA ? you care to comment on them ?

My experience outside of shotokan is with Olympic free style wrestling , but I will post this video of my sensei who I trained with for 18 years ,this is the kind of shotokan I practiced and learned ,this is the stance we adopt in kumite ,the emphasise was more towards self defence but we did competition style training but the stance virtually remain the same ,only a little smaller in close quarter self defence sitautions .

http://youtu.be/ngVs54Ozw0k

Check 0:30 for the stance I am talking about ..
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Kuma
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
Is that his name Nurishima ? he is great fighter ,very powerful as I saw pounding the bag wit his punches and kicks ,we all have those exceptionally gifted people ,you put him in a MMA cage and I am sure he can still handle himself .
I am sure he knows all too well about angles and distancing and timing ,I was questioning the adopted guard and stance in a kyukoshin kumite as general which does set bad habits asthey are not worried about theirfaces being blown away with face punch.


For some that may be the case. In other cases, going back to your Ali reference, they often keep a lower guard in an attempt to draw attacks up high so they can use that to their advantage. One of my favorite fighters, Hajime Kazumi, is very much like that. He just waits for a high kick to come and demolishes the supporting leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYi-fH3b0BE&feature=related

Quote:
an over commited zenkutsu dachi with a lung or reverse punch is just as bad ,but well commited one is extremely powerful and devastating .


As can be a rear straight from a more kickboxing-oriented stance.

Quote:
You had to go back to 1985 to bring up your example of shotokan kumite ?!


bassaiguy used one from 1987. Does it really change that much over the years? Any comments on that video by the way?

Quote:
did you see the one I posted ? although even in the one you posted these fighters are aware of each others intetions and speed and trying to close each other down . No they don't look very fluid in the one you posted from 30 years ago that is becuase of the reason I mentioned above but what about the one I posted from JKA ? you care to comment on them ?


Most of the clips are so short it's tough to tell but I still think they look slug footed compared to other fighters in different striking arts. The bouncing thing is always a poor idea as well, very easy to get swept or eat a hard low kick.
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pers
Purple Belt
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
Is that his name Nurishima ? he is great fighter ,very powerful as I saw pounding the bag wit his punches and kicks ,we all have those exceptionally gifted people ,you put him in a MMA cage and I am sure he can still handle himself .
I am sure he knows all too well about angles and distancing and timing ,I was questioning the adopted guard and stance in a kyukoshin kumite as general which does set bad habits asthey are not worried about theirfaces being blown away with face punch.


For some that may be the case. In other cases, going back to your Ali reference, they often keep a lower guard in an attempt to draw attacks up high so they can use that to their advantage. One of my favorite fighters, Hajime Kazumi, is very much like that. He just waits for a high kick to come and demolishes the supporting leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYi-fH3b0BE&feature=related

Quote:
an over commited zenkutsu dachi with a lung or reverse punch is just as bad ,but well commited one is extremely powerful and devastating .


As can be a rear straight from a more kickboxing-oriented stance.

Quote:
You had to go back to 1985 to bring up your example of shotokan kumite ?!


bassaiguy used one from 1987. Does it really change that much over the years? Any comments on that video by the way?


Most of the clips are so short it's tough to tell but I still think they look slug footed compared to other fighters in different striking arts. The bouncing thing is always a poor idea as well, very easy to get swept or eat a hard low kick.


Which take us back to square one ,they adopt the lower guard becuase they are not worried about being punched in the face ...

bouncing on the foot would be wrong if you bounce up and down ,not if you are going forward and back on the ball of your feet , it gives you fluidity to go in any direction you want . Great emphasis and attention was given to us not to do that ...

if you see them bouncing up and down then they are not doing it right ,they will be very easy to score on or swept off their feet .
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