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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| KarateKen wrote: |
| aurik wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| How often do spazzing white belts tap out BJJ black belts?? |
I don't think that it's so much that the spazzing white belts are going to make a black belt tap. However, white belts have little to no control and are just trying to get out there and prove themselves. My CI always says that when sparring you're far more likely to get injured when sparring a white belt than a black belt for that very reason. |
I've often been more comfortable sparring black belts than low ranks. They have much more control and don't need to prove how tough they are. Some white belts are about a half step above the drunk in the bar who throws wild haymakers. |
White belts only do what they know!! In time, the white belt begins to harness their control. I love to see a white belt get a technique in on a black belt due by their inexperience, and their lack of experience can be difficult to a black belt from time to time.
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I don't disagree that white belts, due to their inexperience, can be unpredictable when sparring or rolling. But I don't scared to spar with them. Sure, they might tag me, but that's on me. In all likelihood, I'm not going to have a major problem in sparring with a white belt.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
So we talked about Tyson but this week UFC fighter Colby Covington was calling out LeBron James and challenged him to a fight because of his refusal to stand for the national anthem. Political opinions aside, would the 5'11" 170-pound Covington be taking on more than he can handle? Colby is a former UFC interim champion who is fighting for the title belt this weekend, he also was a college wrestling champion and has a BB in BJJ with I think about 16 years of training. Clearly James would have a big advantage in size, weight, and strength, but with a lifetime of training would an elite competitor who is much smaller come out on top? I would think so.
To me it is a little like when Jaylen Ramsey said he is such a great athlete that with six months of practice he could play in the NHL even though he has never played hockey or even skated before. Well, no he couldn't. How can someone with six months of practice compete against top level professionals who have been training their entire lives? |
In this case, we are talking about two professional athletes and competitors with differing specializations. I don't think Lebron James has the advantage in this situation, due to the level of specialization in training (I don't know that Lebron James has done any kind of MA training, but many professional athletes have in the past). Now, put James in the lower rungs of MMA competition, and we have a more interesting discussion.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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KarateKen
Green Belt
Joined: 12 Nov 2021
Posts: 420
Location: Dojo
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| KarateKen wrote: |
So we talked about Tyson but this week UFC fighter Colby Covington was calling out LeBron James and challenged him to a fight because of his refusal to stand for the national anthem. Political opinions aside, would the 5'11" 170-pound Covington be taking on more than he can handle? Colby is a former UFC interim champion who is fighting for the title belt this weekend, he also was a college wrestling champion and has a BB in BJJ with I think about 16 years of training. Clearly James would have a big advantage in size, weight, and strength, but with a lifetime of training would an elite competitor who is much smaller come out on top? I would think so.
To me it is a little like when Jaylen Ramsey said he is such a great athlete that with six months of practice he could play in the NHL even though he has never played hockey or even skated before. Well, no he couldn't. How can someone with six months of practice compete against top level professionals who have been training their entire lives? |
In this case, we are talking about two professional athletes and competitors with differing specializations. I don't think Lebron James has the advantage in this situation, due to the level of specialization in training (I don't know that Lebron James has done any kind of MA training, but many professional athletes have in the past). Now, put James in the lower rungs of MMA competition, and we have a more interesting discussion. |
Fair enough. Former NFL player Greg Hardy took to the MMA world after leaving football. He beat some low level fighters in the UFC I think, but once he had to face top ranked competitors he was defeated quickly and easily. |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Size vs Skill |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
I know this has a lot of variables and might be impossible to answer, but how much training would a person need to overcome an attacker who is larger than they are?
Person A is 5'9" tall 165 pounds, a second-degree black belt with 8 years of training and they get attacked by person B who is 6'3" 220 pounds with zero training, who would have the advantage? |
Theoretically, the 2nd Dan "should" be able the larger, unskilled attacker quite easily.
However, I know of several incidences where a 1-5th Dan black belt has gotten their butt kicked by someone with little or no fighting experience.
One example is a young 18 year old 1st or 2nd dan dan, 6'2, about 180 or so that was a very skilled tournament (light touch) competitor and consistently had been placing 1st-2nd in all style tournaments. On his last day of high school a guy he'd been having problems with challenged him to a fight in an alley after school. This other guy had just 6 months of boxing. I didn't see the fight, but did talk to the martial artist. He got his butt kicked EASILY by the boxer. Black eyes, bloody nose and totally embarrassed as there was quite a crowd I guess.
Proper training in a legitimate system "should" bring success in a fight as you've described. But as we all know, there are systems out there that look good, but don't work.
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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I gotta dive into this size vs skill thing.
OK, STATS:
I'm 6'6" tall and weigh 250lbs. I have long arms and legs and hold a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo (Seito) Karate.
Now, I'm old (71) and have bad knees, bad back, numb right hand and a cancer. All of which have made me retire from teaching.
However, if NONE of those things existed, and say I was 30-40 years old without those issues (sighing), I still believe, from the experiences I've had training with these individuals, that if I actually had to street fight a legitimate Okinawan master of my art, I'd go down like a sack of flour. As you know, your average Okinawan male is around 5'4-5'6" tall.
If you, as a 2nd dan with 8 years of experience, in a fair fight, can't handle a larger person in a street fight, then I propose you need to rethink the system you're learning.
My opinion...
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16436
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Montana wrote: |
I gotta dive into this size vs skill thing.
OK, STATS:
I'm 6'6" tall and weigh 250lbs. I have long arms and legs and hold a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo (Seito) Karate.
Now, I'm old (71) and have bad knees, bad back, numb right hand and a cancer. All of which have made me retire from teaching.
However, if NONE of those things existed, and say I was 30-40 years old without those issues (sighing), I still believe, from the experiences I've had training with these individuals, that if I actually had to street fight a legitimate Okinawan master of my art, I'd go down like a sack of flour. As you know, your average Okinawan male is around 5'4-5'6" tall.
If you, as a 2nd dan with 8 years of experience, in a fair fight, can't handle a larger person in a street fight, then I propose you need to rethink the system you're learning.
My opinion... |
Very important points, to be for sure. Imho, this post speaks directly to knowledge and experience, which both require maturity in techniques to be effective, and fear is what usually stalls maturity in techniques.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Montana wrote: |
I gotta dive into this size vs skill thing.
OK, STATS:
I'm 6'6" tall and weigh 250lbs. I have long arms and legs and hold a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo (Seito) Karate.
Now, I'm old (71) and have bad knees, bad back, numb right hand and a cancer. All of which have made me retire from teaching.
However, if NONE of those things existed, and say I was 30-40 years old without those issues (sighing), I still believe, from the experiences I've had training with these individuals, that if I actually had to street fight a legitimate Okinawan master of my art, I'd go down like a sack of flour. As you know, your average Okinawan male is around 5'4-5'6" tall.
If you, as a 2nd dan with 8 years of experience, in a fair fight, can't handle a larger person in a street fight, then I propose you need to rethink the system you're learning.
My opinion... |
Very important points, to be for sure. Imho, this post speaks directly to knowledge and experience, which both require maturity in techniques to be effective, and fear is what usually stalls maturity in techniques.
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Agreed! Fear needs to be addressed as it alone can decide the outcome of a fight.
Fear can be overcome thru training IMO and repetition and having confidence in your training and experience. In real fights, I've been surprisingly calm and poised from beginning to end of the experience. I didn't choose the fights, the others did.
Back in 1985 I was confronted by 3 men in their 20's I was 15 years older at least), average size, unknown skills, in a parking lot as I was leaving to get into my car. I had no choice in the matter but to defend myself. One swung first, dropped him in one punch to the nose (possibly broke it). #2 got a snap kick to the solar plexus and dropped, and #3 decided he didn't want to play. Shortly afterwards the adrenaline kicked in and I started having major shakes, but I surprised myself that I was very calm, relaxed and ready for whatever was going to happen. I was a long time shodan at that point.
I've analyzed this fight for years remembering every detail of the event. It lasted under a minute, yet is as vivid now as it was then. I felt good, I felt ready, I felt confident and I had no fear in me.
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Size vs Skill |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
I know this has a lot of variables and might be impossible to answer, but how much training would a person need to overcome an attacker who is larger than they are?
Person A is 5'9" tall 165 pounds, a second-degree black belt with 8 years of training and they get attacked by person B who is 6'3" 220 pounds with zero training, who would have the advantage? |
Going back to this original question for some clarification. Seeing the way the conversation has evolved, I think defining some things is important.
How do we define "overcoming" the attacker? Are we talking about standing over our fallen opponent in victory? Or are we talking about doing just enough to get away and be safe, and avoid injury as much as possible? Are we talking about two people having a disagreement, and then "stepping outside," dual style? Or we talking about the sudden violence of an ambush attack? I think identifying these parameters can add some nuance to the conversation.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 896
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Size vs Skill |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| KarateKen wrote: |
I know this has a lot of variables and might be impossible to answer, but how much training would a person need to overcome an attacker who is larger than they are?
Person A is 5'9" tall 165 pounds, a second-degree black belt with 8 years of training and they get attacked by person B who is 6'3" 220 pounds with zero training, who would have the advantage? |
Going back to this original question for some clarification. Seeing the way the conversation has evolved, I think defining some things is important.
How do we define "overcoming" the attacker? Are we talking about standing over our fallen opponent in victory? Or are we talking about doing just enough to get away and be safe, and avoid injury as much as possible? Are we talking about two people having a disagreement, and then "stepping outside," dual style? Or we talking about the sudden violence of an ambush attack? I think identifying these parameters can add some nuance to the conversation. |
Very good point! The above parameters would make a massive difference.
One other thing that just came to mind is that when training a lot of larger trainees can (intentionally or otherwise) hold back quite a bit when sparring with others, which could potentially be a bad habit or fight to their internalised view of 'fighting fair' and could also have an impact.
A few personal examples i can think of :
- i hadn't realised how much i hold back sometimes when sparring until one of the 3rd dans called it out explicitly that i could go a little harder with some of them even though i am a lot larger (we took a while and worked out a level of force that people were comfortable with)
- on the mentality point, i have a very good friend who also trains and we are a very similar size. He was going on and on one day about how 'deadly' some of his techniques would be in a fight. We were near a road and i asked him to demonstrate and pretend we were just fighting, as he was quickly setting himself i grabbed him, and went to throw him into the street (i kept a very tight hold so he didn't go onto it) and explained to him that while he prepared and got ready for his 'fight' i had just thrown him under the wheels of a bus so i win by squish! He wasn't ready for someone to fight outwith the rules of what he thought were sensible and fair.
Hopefully the above isn't too disjointed! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16436
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Size vs Skill |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| KarateKen wrote: |
I know this has a lot of variables and might be impossible to answer, but how much training would a person need to overcome an attacker who is larger than they are?
Person A is 5'9" tall 165 pounds, a second-degree black belt with 8 years of training and they get attacked by person B who is 6'3" 220 pounds with zero training, who would have the advantage? |
Going back to this original question for some clarification. Seeing the way the conversation has evolved, I think defining some things is important.
How do we define "overcoming" the attacker? Are we talking about standing over our fallen opponent in victory? Or are we talking about doing just enough to get away and be safe, and avoid injury as much as possible? Are we talking about two people having a disagreement, and then "stepping outside," dual style? Or we talking about the sudden violence of an ambush attack? I think identifying these parameters can add some nuance to the conversation. |
Allow me to address the above bold type per my knowledge and experience, if I may question by question!?
| Quote: |
| How do we define "overcoming" the attacker? Are we talking about standing over our fallen opponent in victory? Or are we talking about doing just enough to get away and be safe, and avoid injury as much as possible? |
To cause and/or create one's attacker to cease and desist their unwarranted and unprovoked actions towards another. To "overcome" the attacker is to eliminate said threat in the most direct manner be it through target selections so as to cancel effective means. To take the umph out of my attackers' intents by any means.
Doesn't mean I want to knock my attacker out or break their body in any given way, but perhaps to just inflict pain capitulation, of which I rather prefer because it's not as permanent. When my attacker's compliant with my applications, their brain is telling them to do one thing, but their body’s telling them something else.
To me, I desire the latter of the questions above to overcome my attacker.
| Quote: |
| Are we talking about two people having a disagreement, and then "stepping outside," dual style? Or we talking about the sudden violence of an ambush attack? |
Both are quite possible to occur whether one's willing or not. Therefore, one must be prepared that either might occur. Should either occur, then, if necessary and unavoidable, then I will initiate the latter option from above...pain capitulation.
Nothing is for certain. In that, I'm prepared to decide to take the path of a terrible resolve for cause because my attacker made a decision and forced my hand, of that, my attacker must take responsibilities of whatever course I choose to effectively apply.
We have to draw our own conclusions.
Imho.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
