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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
All good points, Bob. You'll have to remind me what Shu/Ha/Ri translates to exactly, but I do remember discussing it. If I recall correctly, it's the study and expansion of forms and their applications?

Shu: PROTECT/OBEY In this beginning stage students follow the teachings of one master precisely. They concentrate on how to do the task, without worrying too much about the underlying theory. If there are multiple variations on how to do the task, they concentrate on just the one way their master teaches them.

Ha: DETACH/DIGRESS At this point students begin to branch out. With the basic practices working they now start to learn the underlying principles and theory behind the technique. They also start learning from other masters and integrates that learning into his practice.

Ri: LEAVE/SEPARATE Now the students aren't learning from other people, but from their own practice. They create their own approaches and adapts what they've learned to their own particular circumstances.

ShuHaRi repeats itself with no ending in sight; we're ALL students always learning, of which, every new learning repeats ShuHaRi. Our learning, EXPANSION, has no ending, BOUNDLESS.



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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bruce Lee wrote:

pg. 7, paragraph two: The way to transcend karma lies in the proper use of the mind and the will. The oneness of all life is a truth that can be fully realized only when false notions of a separate self, whose destiny can be considered apart from the whole, are forever annihilated.

Interesting how Bruce uses Zen, a Japanese belief, due to him being Chinese. Nonetheless, this speaks to me as well because Bruce speaks briefly about this in the beginning of Enter The Dragon. If I may...

(Italics are that of the Shaolin Teacher, and the Bold are that of Bruce)

What are your thoughts when facing an opponent?
There is no opponent.
And why is that?
Because the word "I" does not exist.
So. Continue.
A good fight should be. . .
. . . like a small play, but played seriously.
A good martial artist does not become tense, but ready.
Not thinking, yet not dreaming.
Ready for whatever may come.
When the opponent expand, I contract.
When he contracts, I expand.
And when there is an opportunity. . .
. . . I do not hit.
It hits all by itself.

Now, you must remember. . .
. . .the enemy has only images and illusions. . .
. . . behind which he hides his true motives.
Destroy the image and you will break the enemy.
The "it" that you refer to is a powerful weapon. . .
. . .easily misused by the martial artist who deserts his vows
.

In Karate, there's a a maxim that speaks towards this...

Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro.

Mizu No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Moon):

Both of these beliefs speak towards to the mental attitude required while facing an actual opponent. Mizu No Kororo refers to the need to make the mind calm, like the surface of undisturbed water. Smooth water reflects the image accurately of all objects within its range, and if the mind remains calm, apprehension of the opponent's movements, no matter the movement, will be both immediate and accurate, and one's responses, both defensive and offensive, will be appropriate, and accurate.

On the other hand, if the surface of the water is disturbed, the images it reflects will be distorted, albeit, if the mind is preoccupied with thoughts of attack or defense, it will not apprehend the opponent's intensions, creating an opportunity for the opponent to attack.

Tsuki No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Water):

What's referred here is to the needs to be constantly aware of the totality of the both the opponent and movements. As the moonlight shines equally on everything within its range, so shall ones undisturbed mind. With the complete development of this attitude, the consciousness will be immediately aware of any opening in the opponent's defenses. Clouds blocking the light of the moon are akin to nervousness or distractions which interfere with correct apprehension of the opponent's movements, thusly making it impossible to find an opening and to apply the proper techniques.

Both speak loudly to me of that self-annihilation because without that, there's no self to separate. It's so easy for us to get in our own way.



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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff, guys. Great insight and points. You guys are definitely better at the philosophical stuff than I.

Bob, thanks for expounding on ShuHaRi. I have a much clearer picture of it now.
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SLK59
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:


Mizu No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Moon):

Tsuki No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Water):



Meaning absolutely no disrespect, I think that you may have inadvertently reversed those.

Tsuki = “Moon”
Mizu = “Water”

On the other hand, the descriptions themselves are spot on.

Cheers,
Scott
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, we're back! Onward and upward!

Bruce Lee wrote:
pg. 7, paragraphs 3 and 4: Voidness is that which stands right in the middle between this and that. The void is all-inclusive, having no opposite - there is nothing which it excludes or opposes. It is living void, because all forms come out of it and whoever realizes the void is filled with life and power and the love all beings.

Turn into a doll made of wood: it has no ego, it thinks nothing, it is not grasping or sticky. Let the body and limbs work themselves out in accordance with the discipline they have undergone.


So, paragraph three, on voidness. I think many tend to think of "the void" as the ultimate emptiness; after all, doesn't void mean "without?" But here, Lee describes it as all-inclusive, "nothing which it excludes or opposes." This is very odd sounding to me, indeed.

In paragraph four, I think I understand what Lee is trying to drive at. He is saying to let go our your ego, or any impressions you might already have, and become that empty cup that is ready to be filled.

Thoughts?
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SLK59 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:


Mizu No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Moon):

Tsuki No Kokoro (A Mind Like The Water):



Meaning absolutely no disrespect, I think that you may have inadvertently reversed those.

Tsuki = “Moon”
Mizu = “Water”

On the other hand, the descriptions themselves are spot on.

Cheers,
Scott

Well, ::facepalm:: My mind knew better, but my fingers typed whatever they wanted to. Thanks, SLK59 for spotting that. Don't think I've ever reversed those before, ever!!

Mizu No Kokoro = Mind Like Water

Tsuki No Kokoro = Mind Like The Moon

Now, I'll go sit in the corner while wearing my dunce cap.



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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Movements of any type live within that void...forever. Never seeing the light of day...forever. Day and night are the same in that void; still, not even the most slightest ripple whatsoever.

Not until the mind births it into existence...

Study your opponent
Study yourself
Make a plan
Carry plan out

Each are residents of the void, neither coming alive until the mind brings actions to them. I can't study my opponent until I consciously do so. I can't study myself until I consciously do so. I can't make a plan until I consciously do so. I can't carry any plan until I consciously do so. However, there must be an awakening that brings it out of the void. Until then, all things within said void are dormant.

Techniques are strictly dependent upon movement, no matter how infinitesimal. Thoughts are dependent upon the impetus being aware. Albeit, how can anything escape from the void unless self is awakened from its own void first...

"Not thinking, yet not dreaming." ~ Bruce Lee

This can't occur unless the void is stirred through the conscious of the very moment...

"I do not hit.
It hits all by itself"
~ Bruce Lee

Thoughts are leading residents of the void, and without thought escaping this void willingly or by force, nothing can be imbued, not even with sparkle, as though that void was a black hole.




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SLK59
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Ok, we're back! Onward and upward!
Bruce Lee wrote:
pg. 7, paragraphs 3 and 4: Voidness is that which stands right in the middle between this and that. The void is all-inclusive, having no opposite - there is nothing which it excludes or opposes. It is living void, because all forms come out of it and whoever realizes the void is filled with life and power and the love all beings.

Turn into a doll made of wood: it has no ego, it thinks nothing, it is not grasping or sticky. Let the body and limbs work themselves out in accordance with the discipline they have undergone.


Both of those appear to be paraphrases of classic Taoist/Daoist teachings. The best advice I can give would be to read through good translations of the Tao Te Ching/Daodejing and the Chuang Tzŭ/Zhuangzi, along with one or two reputable books on Zen Buddhism, and see how many parallels you can find.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the elaborations, both of you! I think I have a copy of the Tao Te Ching here at home; it might have to be the next thing I read!

Bob, your mention of consciousness, and "becoming" so is an interesting caveat. I also like what you said about "awakening." Very interesting points to ponder.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Lee wrote:
pg. 7, paragraphs 5 and 6: If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like and echo.

Nothingness cannot be defined; the softest thing cannot be snapped.


Alright, in these stanzas here, I feel like I am beginning to understand some concepts that Lee is talking about (but am probably wrong...). Paragraph 5 starts out, to me, with being flexible. Not just supple in body, but flexible in your mind, in how you think, in how you approach things. By being flexible in our view of the world around us, new things will be revealed to us.

Moving like water: the classic Bruce Lee line. Water has no shape, and thus can take the shape of whatever vessel it encounters. It flows and fills, and flows on.

Being still, like a mirror, is something different. The mirror only reflects your movements (and that of other things around you, of course). The mirror only shows you what is there, what you present. So, in being still, like the mirror, this means....present nothing in the reflection to move? I think I'm better with water...

Respond like an echo: an echo is only a reverberation of sound. I guess if you think about it, the response of an echo is only what was offered in the first place. So, when responding to someone, only respond with what they present you? I think I'll have that glass of water...

Nothingness cannot be defined...so I won't bother. The softest thing cannot be snapped: I believe this goes back to being flexible in how you receive things.
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