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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1717

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a general universal explanation, basics are basics because they are essential principles and skills which must be understood and mastered in order to improve in overall skills.

In mathematics, for example, one must first master additions an substracitions before attempting to do multiplications and divisions. One cannot expect to read a sentence without first learning which letter makes what sound and how they fit together.

In grappling or throwing it is very difficult to learn locks and throws without a solid grasp of things like balance and leverage. These are but two of the “basics” which are used in every other technique in a grappling system.
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Since you wanted to start a fig ... err discussion, I'll play.

The basics are important because the really good advanced stuff is just basics done well or done under different positions or done in combination.

For example, let's look at the basic berimbolo back take from top half-guard, by many considered to be an advanced move.
But what is it really? All you are doing is combining a gift wrap back take with a forward roll. Both white-blue belt moves, but when done smoothly in combination, you get something that is worthy of purple-brown belt at least.

You will find this idea repeats it'self all throughout Judo and Jiu-jitsu. And yes, I DO attend both the beginners AND advanced classes as time allows, because a lot of being good is about being better than you were yesterday at WHATEVER you are doing.
To really reach the MOST advanced level, you have to find the smooth combination of basics in to something advanced that works for you, BUT in order to that, your basics have to BE smooth, and effortless enough to do in combination.


This. Every advanced movement is just a string of fundamental techniques pieced together in a unique string. That's why they are important. Those parts can function individually or in concert.
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: The "basics" are important Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Such an oft touted phrase I hear all the time. I agree with it but I want to pick a fight and start an argu... err "discussion...."

I hear lots of people say this phrase and often times it means "I don't know how to teach advanced stuff." It becomes a self serving statement "I teach the basics, the basics are important, therefore I teach important stuff." Why else might they say it? "My coach told me basics are important, so I'm just repeating him..." Can you articulate and explain the WHY behind this statement?

Several people will claim this- maybe you're a blue belt or a purple belt. Do you attend the white belt classes then? Are you really practicing (and refining) your bump and roll, hip escape, and stand in base?


Don't lie people, I know you're working on that hot new berimbolo sweep with a handstand into an inverted footlock you saw on youtube....

So here it is- if all the advanced guys are doing advanced stuff and you see them do a "basic" technique once every blue moon... doesn't it suggest the advanced stuff is where its at?


Jiu jitsu is also a big art. most of us don't have time to explore all of it.

Let me be honest. As a black belt and a school owner. There's lots of advanced tactics I don't know, don't do, and don't teach.

No, I'm not working on the bermbolo, worm guard, or whatever the new super move is. It's just not my game.

Now, I can show you some pretty cool set ups and "advanced" application of side control and spider guard. Because that is my thing. But what drives these? Weight distribution, connection manipulation, fundamental technique and tactics strung together in ways that allows me to chain action that is "advanced" in nature.

I'm not saying those other things are bad, just that they aren't my thing and I don't have time to make them my thing.

If we're honest, this is probably true of most of us. If you're winning high level comps like the worlds and pans you're already training more than probably 80 percent of the jiu jitsu population. You have should have some stuff the rest of us don't do regularly in you tool box. It's math.

The solid grasp of the basics also ensures that you have something to go back to when all else fails. I like spider guard. I got punched in the face hard doing it once and I'm all loopy. Guess what, because of the basics I had the option to pull to closed guard and sweep. Even with my head ringing, because someone made me revisit the fundamental constantly. They will always be there with situation ally some of the specific things we do might not because of one reason or another.

It's just a matter of determining how much training time you have and comparing that to your goals then making sure the two match.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14332
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything advanced doesn't exist without the basics, and the basics outshine the advanced time and time again. Why is the white belt the most important belt?? Because the other belts don't come without the white belt!! Same here, without the basics, first, there are no advanced.



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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The "basics" are important Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Such an oft touted phrase I hear all the time. I agree with it but I want to pick a fight and start an argu... err "discussion...."

I hear lots of people say this phrase and often times it means "I don't know how to teach advanced stuff." It becomes a self serving statement "I teach the basics, the basics are important, therefore I teach important stuff." Why else might they say it? "My coach told me basics are important, so I'm just repeating him..." Can you articulate and explain the WHY behind this statement?

Several people will claim this- maybe you're a blue belt or a purple belt. Do you attend the white belt classes then? Are you really practicing (and refining) your bump and roll, hip escape, and stand in base?


Don't lie people, I know you're working on that hot new berimbolo sweep with a handstand into an inverted footlock you saw on youtube....

So here it is- if all the advanced guys are doing advanced stuff and you see them do a "basic" technique once every blue moon... doesn't it suggest the advanced stuff is where its at?


Jiu jitsu is also a big art. most of us don't have time to explore all of it.

Let me be honest. As a black belt and a school owner. There's lots of advanced tactics I don't know, don't do, and don't teach.

No, I'm not working on the bermbolo, worm guard, or whatever the new super move is. It's just not my game.

Now, I can show you some pretty cool set ups and "advanced" application of side control and spider guard. Because that is my thing. But what drives these? Weight distribution, connection manipulation, fundamental technique and tactics strung together in ways that allows me to chain action that is "advanced" in nature.

I'm not saying those other things are bad, just that they aren't my thing and I don't have time to make them my thing.

If we're honest, this is probably true of most of us. If you're winning high level comps like the worlds and pans you're already training more than probably 80 percent of the jiu jitsu population. You have should have some stuff the rest of us don't do regularly in you tool box. It's math.

The solid grasp of the basics also ensures that you have something to go back to when all else fails.
I like spider guard. I got punched in the face hard doing it once and I'm all loopy. Guess what, because of the basics I had the option to pull to closed guard and sweep. Even with my head ringing, because someone made me revisit the fundamental constantly. They will always be there with situation ally some of the specific things we do might not because of one reason or another.

It's just a matter of determining how much training time you have and comparing that to your goals then making sure the two match.


I’ll be honest, lots of top notch guys I’ve competed against or trained with didn’t have technical details- some were merely more athletic than their counterparts. Of course, relative to your joe hobbyist they’re incredibly knowledgeable, but many of them do thing the same way you do- they’re just bigger, faster, or stronger when they do it...

But I also want to address how you brought up basics and closed guard. This is getting to the heart of what I’m bringing up.

Tempest for example brought up a “gift wrap.” I’ve heard of it and know what it is, but I wouldn’t consider it a “basic.” I also wouldn’t consider “closed guard” on that list because it’s a position and not a technique.... therefore it can’t be a basic technique eh? It would seem everyone has a different definition of what constitutes a “basic” technique and what “basics” are. This makes the entire discussion relative. What’s basic to you is advanced to a blue belt. This is also why I hate the argument that “basics make up advanced positions.” While I agree with that statement, I think it needlessly complicated the discussion when we don’t even have a concrete non bias definition and explanation as to what these basics are. Everyone has a different answer, and they all seem to be relative. I should also point out these answers are consistent all the way up the food chain too...

I hope this doesn’t come across as an attack on you because it’s not. I just very much prefer a Socratic Method of teaching/learning. As such I welcome it when it comes my way too...
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