Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2360
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??




Yes


I love the “yes” response to a multiple choice question.

Me: “Honey, do you want to go to the Italian restaurant or the steak restaurant?”
My wife: “Yes.”
Me: Shakes head and walks away thinking “how is it someone with a degree in English has no clue how to speak English?”

That happens about 4 times a day on average. Different questions, same answer.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??




Yes


I love the “yes” response to a multiple choice question.

Me: “Honey, do you want to go to the Italian restaurant or the steak restaurant?”
My wife: “Yes.”
Me: Shakes head and walks away thinking “how is it someone with a degree in English has no clue how to speak English?”

That happens about 4 times a day on average. Different questions, same answer.



I admit, I do this often..

But "yes" in the sense of do all of the above. Get some more material in this thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


Im going to be a little provocative here (imagine that....)

I would add the following to the end of those sentences:

"To my knowledge"
and
"So far"

And the conversation can take a rather dynamic course eh?


Then that's not a conversation. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.


I think you’re misinterpreting my intentions or my posts- I’m merely trying to stimulate a conversation not put words in your mouth. When I suggest those two phrases I’m suggesting that absolute knowledge is something that is rare, perhaps not attained yet- so maybe we start to brainstorm about what we think those basics could be, what makes them “the basics” and what legitimizes that claim.

So let me rephrase. I always add those two phrases when I hear someone show, teach, or explain something. It still becomes a conversation, just not necessarily an opinion and it puts things into perspective. - what if I were to ask you to add those two phrases at the end of your statements? Would you have the same opinions then?


If I felt those additions were necessary, they'd be there already.

People have been trying to simply quantify and unify just about everything (laws of physics, biology, music, language, etc.) That has never, and will never happen. The more we learn about the world, the more complicated we realize things are. I don't think martial arts is an exception.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


I see what both of you are saying here. However, I do tend to agree with what TJ is getting at. In TKD, I classify basic kicks as front kicks, side kicks, and round kicks. Everything else I can build off these three kicks. In my limited BJJ experience, I would tend to believe that there are some BJJ basics out there that most instructors would agree on.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


I see what both of you are saying here. However, I do tend to agree with what TJ is getting at. In TKD, I classify basic kicks as front kicks, side kicks, and round kicks. Everything else I can build off these three kicks. In my limited BJJ experience, I would tend to believe that there are some BJJ basics out there that most instructors would agree on.


I'll go a step further and say it doesn't matter if the instructors agree on it or not, much the same way that scientists don't have to agree on a theory for it to be valid....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.
For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.
Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.
For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.
Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.




Now we’re starting on the same page...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.
For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.
Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.




Now we’re starting on the same page...


So, TJ, since you started this up, I'm assuming you have an answer to your own question. As an instructor/trainer, what do you consider to be the basics of BJJ? Say its my first class, what should I expect to learn? And what do I expect to learn that first month to 6 weeks, as per the basics?
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.
For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.
Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.




Now we’re starting on the same page...


So, TJ, since you started this up, I'm assuming you have an answer to your own question. As an instructor/trainer, what do you consider to be the basics of BJJ? Say its my first class, what should I expect to learn? And what do I expect to learn that first month to 6 weeks, as per the basics?


The basic moves would be your bridge and your hip escape. You could argue stand in base but that's not really a move as much as its the same as the previously mentioned techniques done from a different angle.

What I'd most likely expose you to is these two moves and that's usually taught from mount. Beyond that you'd also most likely learn the scissor sweep and how to posture from inside the guard.

My focus though was WHY these are the basics and how I can justify them. Firstly let me say knowing them isnt a "yes" or "no" thing as much as its a spectrum.

For example, to ask someone "do you know jiu jitsu/bump and roll/hip escape?" isnt the most appropriate question as much as "HOW WELL do you know jiu jitsu/bump and roll/hip escape?"

That in itself opens up a whole different can of worms as to what an "absolutely" correct way of doing a bridge and hip escape is....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are they the basics? Easy enough. They are the most powerful moves you can make from those positions. They make the best use of your muscles in the most efficient manner to overcome your opponents superior leverage.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >