Add KarateForums.com
tallgeese Celebrates 10 Years as a Moderator!
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: The "basics" are important Reply with quote

Such an oft touted phrase I hear all the time. I agree with it but I want to pick a fight and start an argu... err "discussion...."

I hear lots of people say this phrase and often times it means "I don't know how to teach advanced stuff." It becomes a self serving statement "I teach the basics, the basics are important, therefore I teach important stuff." Why else might they say it? "My coach told me basics are important, so I'm just repeating him..." Can you articulate and explain the WHY behind this statement?

Several people will claim this- maybe you're a blue belt or a purple belt. Do you attend the white belt classes then? Are you really practicing (and refining) your bump and roll, hip escape, and stand in base?


Don't lie people, I know you're working on that hot new berimbolo sweep with a handstand into an inverted footlock you saw on youtube....

So here it is- if all the advanced guys are doing advanced stuff and you see them do a "basic" technique once every blue moon... doesn't it suggest the advanced stuff is where its at?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you wanted to start a fig ... err discussion, I'll play.

The basics are important because the really good advanced stuff is just basics done well or done under different positions or done in combination.

For example, let's look at the basic berimbolo back take from top half-guard, by many considered to be an advanced move.
But what is it really? All you are doing is combining a gift wrap back take with a forward roll. Both white-blue belt moves, but when done smoothly in combination, you get something that is worthy of purple-brown belt at least.

You will find this idea repeats it'self all throughout Judo and Jiu-jitsu. And yes, I DO attend both the beginners AND advanced classes as time allows, because a lot of being good is about being better than you were yesterday at WHATEVER you are doing.
To really reach the MOST advanced level, you have to find the smooth combination of basics in to something advanced that works for you, BUT in order to that, your basics have to BE smooth, and effortless enough to do in combination.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When learning a foreign language, one does not start with learning the alphabet then go directly into writing novels. Gotta learn and hone things like spelling, basic grammar, sentence structure, etc.

If your basic techniques suck, I can almost guarantee that your "advanced" techniques will suck more.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14268
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without the basics, there can be no intermediate, and without the intermediate, there can be no advanced!!

OK...going back to my corner!! I love watching a good fig...discussion!!






_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what are "the basics" then? Surely someone has to have a list, right?

No one ever gives you a list....
Everyones list seems to be different...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1703

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not enough to know or merely state that something is important, especially as an instructor or advanced practicionner. At one point, sooner or later one must understand and be able to demonstrate why such and such a point is important.

Basics are what everything else is built upon and those are the techniques, principles and concepts that will most likely be of use. Therefore they must be constantly trained, improved and reviewed. Basics are not just boring stuff learned at the beginning and put aside once one moves on to more advanced or complicated content.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what are "the basics" then? Surely someone has to have a list, right?

No one ever gives you a list....
Everyones list seems to be different...


Absolutely. But part of that comes from the disjointed nature of the art, and which fundamental mechanics each instructor wants to emphasize.

But, if you want to come up with a good list, take a look at those movements that are a commonality across a large majority of schools, and those mechanics that seem to come up over and over again in different techniques.

For example, one of the basics for me and my students is the "trap and roll' or "Bridge and roll escape" as it's sometimes called. Because that movement comes up over and over again in a variety of techniques, and it exploits a useful fundamental mechanic that is common to the situations we may find ourselves in.

Another one is the "technical standup" for the same reasons.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27636
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what are "the basics" then? Surely someone has to have a list, right?

No one ever gives you a list....
Everyones list seems to be different...


Ok, this is coming from the TKD guy, but I'll chime in. I do think that the old adage of "the basics are important" is at times a cop-out, and I feel like I fall victim to that in my classes at times.

Our TKD classes start with "basics" every class. To run down a really boring list of floor drills we do:

Sitting stances and punches (in 1s, 2s, and 3s). Then break.

Stepping an punching down the floor, then down block/reverse punch back the other way (done in front stance). Then break.

Knife hand strikes in back stance, stepping forwards and then backwards.
Middle blocks, done like knife hand strikes. Then high blocks in front stance, down the floor and back. Then break.

Double knife hand blocks in back stance, stepping forwards and then backwards down the floor. Then upset knife hand strikes in front stance (lead hand going down, reverse hand going back). Finish with double forearm blocks in front stance, down and back. Then break.

Now kicks. Front stance, stretch kicks down the floor, then front snap kicks going back. Then outside crescent kicks done on each leg. Break.

Sitting stance, advancing side kicks. Two times down and back. Break.

Fighting stance, jump front snap kicks, down and back. Break.

Combinations. Fighting stance to reverse punch in front stance, back leg front kick, continuously down the floor. Then back and break. Same setup follows with reverse punch followed by back leg round kick, down and back and then break. Then reverse punch, back leg round kick, hop side kick down and back, break. Final combination is reverse punch, back leg side kick, spin side kick, down and back.

After all that's done, the class bows, and the low ranks start their forms work, and this is done in groups by rank.

At any rate, I'm sure that was riveting reading brought by the non-grappler of this crew, but its to make a point. We do this in every class, because they basics are important. However, we don't spend much time working on more "advanced" techniques in the class. Like what? Like 360 degree round kicks, or jump spin side kick, or twisting kicks, etc. Now, I'm sure to most grapplers these techniques would appear to be pretty pointless, but never-the-less, they are techniques that many younger and skilled practitioners like to learn to do, and some of the techniques are useful in sparring as counters and finishers in combinations.

Aside from that, there are other factors I experience in the class, too. Our one-steps, for instance. I've always viewed (some) of them as a good starting point in learning self-defense, but its important to advance from the one-step model into a more interactive model for learning good self-defense. Yet we don't do that, either. High rank one-steps start like low rank one-steps. I don't think that should be the case. If you want your students to get better, the instructor has to move things along.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not one to really chime in much on "if you're really gonna need this" type discussions, but quite frankly, if you're really gonna need your training, it'll be a basic technique that ends up getting used above all else. Why? Well, they're typically easy to perform, faster to execute, and since they've been worked on so much, very powerful.

A technique that comes to mind would be a simple front kick. That could be used to break a door down in an instance of a fire. It's also quick, easy to use, and not too dependent on type of clothing. There's no way I'll be wanting to do side kicks or round kicks in jeans, as jeans are too restrictive. I can easily get a front kick off quickly, with reasonable height and with good balance and power. The best part: I will likely NOT get injured from the technique, whereas round kicks and side kicks tend to be rough on my hips if I try them without warming up first.

This actually comes to play quite a bit when I spar. Spinning and jumping are kept to a minimum. Most of the techniques I use are techniques I was taught during my white and yellow belt training.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do we explain those that can do the fancy things but perform basic stuff poorly?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >