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joesteph
Black Belt
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Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
Sincew we never do head kicks (unless you're on your knees maybe?), we use the cresent kick primarily as a sweep to the ankle or knee region.

Interesting application, Montana, in that the emphasis in the Korean arts is high kicking, and the crescent kick is often pressed to be used against the head, my teacher being broader-based in that she will emphasize the axe kick version. Then again, my art has non-contact sparring, so in a tournament an attack against the opponent's collar bone (which she advises) wouldn't hit anyway--but receive a point reward.

Those of us whose kicks aren't anywhere near the opponent's head often just don't use it, and a strike to the thighs is usually done with a roundhouse. To the knees is not acceptable as there could be accidental contact in what is the sport (through tournament) aspect. I wonder if a crescent kick to the thighs would be a surprise to the opponent when sparring? An outside-inside crescent kick (picture the right leg kicking from the right side of your body over to your left) could rechamber into a side kick position from which to execute that side kick. The one-step sparring exercise that is required is for the crescent kick to be relatively high; in sparring, there's no reason why it can't be lower and still perform the follow-up side kick.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15703
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether or not if I'd use one kick over another is, for me, more of a personal choice. A personal choice in what I believe works best for me in 'that' situation at hand.

While I'm an Okinawan stylist and my style doesn't believe in any kick above the stomach, I can see a jump spinning outside crescent kick work just as well and effectively as a jump spinning back kick because I can do both very quickly and very easily through short range.

Pro's and Con's....Is the choice of which kick to use or not to use based on abilities or effectiveness? What a quagmire we find ourselves in from time to time.


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joesteph
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Joined: 11 Aug 2008
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:

Pro's and Con's....Is the choice of which kick to use or not to use based on abilities or effectiveness? What a quagmire we find ourselves in from time to time.


I think ability comes in first, Bob, at least for me. If I can't execute the kick properly, or find it cumbersome to perform, I'll rely on the kick I'm certain of by past experience. No matter how effective a kick can be, the question remains if it can be executed with proficiency by the kicker.

Of course I don't mean not to practice a variety of kicks, and what may be awkward today might be a natural tomorrow by way of practice. If sparring against a lower belt, or someone who likes to take it easy when sparring, I'll try a kick or kick combo that I wouldn't normally use, just to feel it out and get practice in an action setting.
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DWx
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6443
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that what you guys call a crescent kick would actual mean the vertical kick in my style. Its very similar in motion to our crescent kick but the crescent is a blocking kick whereas the vertical kick is the attacking form..
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tonydee
Blue Belt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 253
Location: Japan
Styles: 24 yrs kong soo do, 3 yrs hapkido, bits of others

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't find the outside-to-inside (movement towards the big toe) crescent kick particularly useful, though it can target a blind spot without much telegraphing, so I do swing it over the opponent's shoulder sometimes (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGeVyllK4Bc at 3:55). Honestly, I don't like delivering the kick bare foot, as the inner ankle can catch a nasty crack if you contact someone's skull, catch an elbow or a solid block. It's an ideal kick when you've got good boots on... the stereotypical - if doubtful - application is against an armed attacker - as per Bruce's little effort in Enter the Dragon, though I gather he cut himself quite badly during the shoot (at 8:50 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQORnYPqU3A).

My hapkido master (who was also a WTF taekwondo master and had black belts in a few other arts, so I can't be 100% sure which style his crescent kick was based on), used to keep the leg much straighter than I do, and basically fall forwards through the opponent, forcing their block to bear a sustained weight. Not many attacks require such resistance (axe kick, ...?), and as such it could be an interest aspect to explore.

Inside-to-outside crescent (also called slapping and vertical kick in my old school) is considerably more useful. It's a tighter, more controllable motion, and as KarateGeorge says - can be deceptive.

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Tony
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joesteph
Black Belt
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Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonydee wrote:
I don't find the outside-to-inside (movement towards the big toe) crescent kick particularly useful, though it can target a blind spot without much telegraphing, so I do swing it over the opponent's shoulder sometimes (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGeVyllK4Bc at 3:55).

Watching it at 3:55 and in slo-mo at 4:52 does show what you're referring to about the blind spot, Tony. I feel I learned something watching it in action instead of just a kick to practice. I was introduced to it in a one-step sparring exercise to swat away a lunge punch (lots of luck in the real world); after performing the outside-to-inside kick, instead of placing the foot down, the exercise has the student chamber for a side kick, fired off to the midsection. It's also included in a form, followed by that same leg doing a stomp kick.

Our assistant instructor told me he's used that kick to spar in non-contact tournaments, because the opponent just doesn't expect it. I mention non-contact because of your reference to the problem of having contact against bone. I've found that strong blocks are frowned on when doing my art's tournament sparring; just a movement by the one attacked seems to be the preferred response.

In fairness to my teacher, though, she prefers crescent kicks, out-to-in and in-to-out, as axe kicks against the collar bone. When I do the one-step sparring exercise and the form, I'm permitted to do the out-to-in as an axe kick. The assistant instructor I referred to, above, has used the (unexpected) outside-to-inside against that target. Since it's non-contact, no one's actually injured.
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joesteph
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, Tony, your video at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGeVyllK4Bc&feature=related

has what looks to me like that same blind spot attack with an inside-to-outside crescent kick at 2:34 and slo-mo at 3:27.

Great videos!
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tonydee
Blue Belt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 253
Location: Japan
Styles: 24 yrs kong soo do, 3 yrs hapkido, bits of others

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesteph wrote:
I was introduced to it in a one-step sparring exercise to swat away a lunge punch (lots of luck in the real world); after performing the outside-to-inside kick, instead of placing the foot down, the exercise has the student chamber for a side kick, fired off to the midsection. It's also included in a form, followed by that same leg doing a stomp kick.


My original taekwondo school included the same crescent kick / side kick combination for 1 step sparring, and as DWx mentioned crescent kick appears in some advanced TKD forms. Can only agree that the crescent / side combination is a bit contrived: I see it more as an exercise in balance, coordination, distancing and limb control. While it may never be a good idea to force the crescent kick into use against an arbitrary punch, you will find that sometimes things just come together and a tool in your repertoire just fits in at the time. As you get experience, you'll no doubt surprise yourself many times.

joesteph wrote:
Our assistant instructor told me he's used that kick to spar in non-contact tournaments, because the opponent just doesn't expect it. I mention non-contact because of your reference to the problem of having contact against bone. I've found that strong blocks are frowned on when doing my art's tournament sparring; just a movement by the one attacked seems to be the preferred response.


That's interesting... definitely, surprise is a huge advantage. I find as you get more senior you naturally block more gently, just through better anticipation getting you ready to reach the incoming technique earlier - before it's focused - and affect a more gradual deflection. Still, the first few years in my TKD school it was pretty much bashing away at attacks and blocks... no harm in that either, good phase to pass through, and it's important to have the limb positioning, posture and balance to block when effectively when unable to dodge a strong attack. Now, I sometimes block a bit harder, or shove/pull the attacking limb immediately after blocking, just to unbalance the opponent....

joesteph wrote:
In fairness to my teacher, though, she prefers crescent kicks, out-to-in and in-to-out, as axe kicks against the collar bone. When I do the one-step sparring exercise and the form, I'm permitted to do the out-to-in as an axe kick. The assistant instructor I referred to, above, has used the (unexpected) outside-to-inside against that target. Since it's non-contact, no one's actually injured.


Where I've trained, we wouldn't even call those crescent kicks... just axe kicks. We would sometimes use a front-leg stepping axe kick, but would always bring a straight leg up one one side; other arts (e.g. WTF) sometimes skip in with a front leg kick, raised bent and frontally then extended. That's a bit like what I'd call a "pick" kick, except a pick kick bends again as the heel is lowered into the strike. Our style of straight-leg up-and-down axe kicks are very hard to use in a non-contact situation... a straight leg raised towards vertical has a very strong tendency to crash earthwards, and it's hard to take the power out sufficiently.

Cheers,
Tony
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tonydee
Blue Belt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 253
Location: Japan
Styles: 24 yrs kong soo do, 3 yrs hapkido, bits of others

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesteph wrote:
BTW, Tony, your video at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGeVyllK4Bc&feature=related

has what looks to me like that same blind spot attack with an inside-to-outside crescent kick at 2:34 and slo-mo at 3:27.


Yes, there's an inside-to-outside crescent there - interesting case in that it was "blind side" in the sense of being hard to get an arm to, but it didn't matter if he could see it coming as he was trapped in place by having his front arm tugged downwards. Still, I wasn't so proud of that technique selection as a finishing move: may not have been decisive at finishing a real fight (good boots would help again) so I didn't point it out! There are a couple more examples scattered throughout the other slow sparring videos. Thanks for taking an interest.

Cheers,
Tony
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Pajarito21
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 37

Styles: Wado Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the outside/inside crescent kick as a way to throw there hands away so I can follow up with a back fist or a side kick with the same leg. Basically, its like smacking there front hand away from them to make them twist there body to expose the side or head. I used this plenty of times and get the same positive response. Also the crescent kick is all about what part you are kicking the opponent with. It should be with the bottom the the heel and used as a downward striking motion.
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