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muttley
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 264
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject: Watching MMA for a more "traditionalist" Reply with quote

This topic has probably been covered before and for that I apologize, however I am interested in opinions on this matter and please note, before the argument of "what is traditional" comes to the fore, I said a "more traditionalist". I do not claim to train in a traditional martial art, I train in Kyokushin Karate and before that I was a Shodan in Shotokan, neither are a "traditional" form of Karate, I have no access to a pure Naha-te or Suri-te school, they are modern traditional styles if that makes sense.

Anyway, on to the main subject. I have literally (like this morning), started to watch UFC boughts, I don't know why I haven't watched it before, I think it's to do with my strange belief that UFC was a strange off-shoot of wrestling (it isn't, I know).

What I want to know, do any non-MMA practitioners watch it to see where the moves they learn in they're dojo etc can be used?

I know that UFC is essentially a pre-arranged fight, it is not self defence and it has rules, an end goal (win the fight), it is most certainly not a fight for life or to save the life of another, but short of having something similar to The Purge, I do not think there is likely there is likely to be a televised event like it when it comes to fighting.

This image has sparked some immense discussion on Facebook:



Last edited by muttley on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jaypo
Purple Belt
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520

Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a student of a Shorin Ryu'Shotokan based style, and I also train in Kyusho. And I love MMA competition. But I view it as such- competition. They don't allow groin strikes, eye attacks, and small joint locks, and those things are a big part of what TMA's teach. Because they're taught for self defense, not for competition. I watched the first UFC event, and it was totally different. It was the movie "Bloodsport" in real time. Style vs. style. And BJJ USUALLY won. Fighters with a strong grappling base won the majority of the time. Therefore, fighters started to diversify their training and incorporate BJJ, wrestling, etc. There were no time limits at first, and it was done in tournament format. I actually preferred that era!

Both have their good and bad attributes. But I believe that "martial arts" are better for mind/body/spirit than "MMA".
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2493
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love watching MMA, and I even participated in an MMA bout, once. Certainly, MMA is not a perfect representation of self defense, but there is still value in an arranged fight between trained opponents--especially in a venue where the ruleset is relatively open, and allows for many types of fighting, the way MMA does. The pressure testing aspect of it, if nothing else, is very valuable.

Interestingly, the more MMA develops and evolves, the more old-school karate techniques I see showing up. I've written a variety of articles on the topic, and I routinely save animated GIFs of fighters using these techniques, even when they have no idea that those techniques exist in karate. Think of how popular shovel/oblique kicks and side kicks to the legs are becoming. Trapping and limb control are also showing up more and more often. I think the more fighters grow and evolve, the more we will see the more advanced aspects of traditional martial arts.

The image is one I've seen thrown around Facebook an awful lot, but it's just marketing. Traditional schools are often worried that MMA schools will steal their students. There is definitely a difference between the training in traditional martial arts and the training in MMA, but the image is sensationalist and biased. I've met and spoken to a lot of very respectful, humble MMA fighters, and to say they aren't disciplined is ridiculous! Also, the MMA fighter pictured is Jeff Monson, who is quite intelligent and articulate. Besides, I don't know about anyone else, but my karate is pretty brutal.
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muttley
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 264
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
I love watching MMA, and I even participated in an MMA bout, once. Certainly, MMA is not a perfect representation of self defense, but there is still value in an arranged fight between trained opponents--especially in a venue where the ruleset is relatively open, and allows for many types of fighting, the way MMA does. The pressure testing aspect of it, if nothing else, is very valuable.

Interestingly, the more MMA develops and evolves, the more old-school karate techniques I see showing up. I've written a variety of articles on the topic, and I routinely save animated GIFs of fighters using these techniques, even when they have no idea that those techniques exist in karate. Think of how popular shovel/oblique kicks and side kicks to the legs are becoming. Trapping and limb control are also showing up more and more often. I think the more fighters grow and evolve, the more we will see the more advanced aspects of traditional martial arts.

The image is one I've seen thrown around Facebook an awful lot, but it's just marketing. Traditional schools are often worried that MMA schools will steal their students. There is definitely a difference between the training in traditional martial arts and the training in MMA, but the image is sensationalist and biased. I've met and spoken to a lot of very respectful, humble MMA fighters, and to say they aren't disciplined is ridiculous! Also, the MMA fighter pictured is Jeff Monson, who is quite intelligent and articulate. Besides, I don't know about anyone else, but my karate is pretty brutal.


Your response to the picture is pretty much what a lot of people are saying on Facebook. I think most people don't have an issue with legitimate MMA practitioners or dojo's, to me the issue is when you have a (for example) Karate instructor who decides to train a bit in another form (BJJ or whatever) and then opens a MMA dojo, it's a bit like me saying that I've studied karate for a long time, I've added some training in Aikido and Kung Fu to that (but not much - never graded), I am now a mixed martial artist.
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
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Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 661
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the picture, it's a disrespectful photo to the mma guy, as it depicts him as an ogre in my opinion. I do agree with the intended description of the differences but not as rough around the edges.

I think that I don't like watching MMA fights because it's like a street fight and less of a sport fight like boxing or sport karate. I grew up fighting and i don't care for that type of violence. I grew up watching ninja movies and karate movies and for me it was much more appealing to see the practitioners that were very humble, and only fought when provoked, beyond control on many cases. Doesn't appeal to me.

Have you ever noticed the winner gloating while the opponent is Badly hurt? This really bothers me and doesn't at all reflect what I learned or what I teach!
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Judodad_karateson
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Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 222

Styles: judo, boxing, Karate

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MMA was created by the Gracie's as a marketing tool. They started the Dojo storms, where they would go to gyms and challenge fighters, then they created the UFC, where fighters come to them. MMA rules and equipment were designed to favor not just grappling, but newaza specifically. Of course, nothing can beat a solid punch to the jaw, so there is enough variety that most people don't notice this. But make no mistake, BJJ is always be a dominate art in UFC, because that is what UFC was created to exhibit.

MMA is a sport on par with kickboxing or catch wrestling.

As for the photo, it's complete nonsense. There is plenty of style, grace, and technique in the MMA, plenty of brutality in TMA. The most successful MMA combatants have donned Gis years before they ever even though about entering the cage, and doing so only advanced their talents further.
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Luther unleashed
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Joined: 30 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:
MMA was created by the Gracie's as a marketing tool. They started the Dojo storms, where they would go to gyms and challenge fighters, then they created the UFC, where fighters come to them. MMA rules and equipment were designed to favor not just grappling, but newaza specifically. Of course, nothing can beat a solid punch to the jaw, so there is enough variety that most people don't notice this. But make no mistake, BJJ is always be a dominate art in UFC, because that is what UFC was created to exhibit.

MMA is a sport on par with kickboxing or catch wrestling.

As for the photo, it's complete nonsense. There is plenty of style, grace, and technique in the MMA, plenty of brutality in TMA. The most successful MMA combatants have donned Gis years before they ever even though about entering the cage, and doing so only advanced their talents further.


Actually I don't know if I agree with the statement, the part about the UFC being set up for jujitsu. The first UFC fights had pretty much know jujitsu in them, in fact they were pretty different than what you see now days. Originally you saw people with traditional background stepping in and if you came something that anybody with some blended systems who was tough could make it as a fighter, which is fine but hoyce Gracie didn't even make an impact until later on when he was running into guys twice his size that looked like they were gladiators and he was disposing of them, with his skinny physique, this is what pave the way for jujitsu to become popular the way it is today.
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gracies actually did start the UFC, and they did it to showcase Jiu-Jitsu--that WAS the whole purpose of the tournament. Royce also won UFC 1, 2, 4, and fought to a draw in 5. That said, MMA has evolved quite a bit since those early tournaments, and Jiu-Jitsu does not hold the power it once did inside the cage. Honestly, wrestling is beating BJJ more often than not, these days, and striking is slowly becoming more dominant as fighters become more well-rounded. It may have started as a marketing tool for the Gracies, but it isn't anymore.
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
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Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
The Gracies actually did start the UFC, and they did it to showcase Jiu-Jitsu--that WAS the whole purpose of the tournament. Royce also won UFC 1, 2, 4, and fought to a draw in 5. That said, MMA has evolved quite a bit since those early tournaments, and Jiu-Jitsu does not hold the power it once did inside the cage. Honestly, wrestling is beating BJJ more often than not, these days, and striking is slowly becoming more dominant as fighters become more well-rounded. It may have started as a marketing tool for the Gracies, but it isn't anymore.


Really, i was aware that a Gracie brother was part of the ownership but I was pretty sure that was it. Going back to the first one, I was around 18 then the first matches were really hardly anything to do with Royce or jujitsu for that matter. It was a slugfest, ninjitsu vs sumo wrestling and crazy match ups. Royce came out in there as well but not at first and was hardly the highlight until things got going. I'm simply saying that many people may not realize that when it started jujitsu wasn't flourishing right then. As for jujitsu and it's prowess it's obvious that it's effective, and the ufc should be pointed to as THE reason it gained such popularity. I studied Taekwondo then and had never heard of it until Gracie popped up in the ufc showcasing it.

Back to the topic though I agree the picture is ridiculous and that what I was trying to say. I started my martial arts training prior to the ufc being what it is, so prior to that there was less of a sport aspect to me, and for me it was most appealing to walk amongst the inner city and show the integrity and confidence to not fight. To not fight became the greatest challenge and greatest victory because fighting was easy if you were looking. My point? To actually fight was nothing new and didn't interest me. Based on these ideas I stayed with traditional martial arts and the other stuff never appealed to me for these reasons. Even today I do t touch juijitsu, I'll say it till I'm blue in the face, it's effective. Just doesn't do thing for me, I have adapted some wrestling moves to get back on my feet to use my weapons which is strikes, joint locks and throws. I have learned basic arm bars and such just to make sure I can protect myself on the ground if needed but not much practice to be honest.

I don't think less of people who get into it, I just get into what I like and it has little to do with what others are in to. I have watched a few machida fights, and I appreciate his karate background BUT again I see not fighting as the main lesson in traditional martial arts, not fighting for money, fame, or reputation.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and the picture above can also be viewed as somewhat racist and discriminative. Is it saying the guys looks mean he's a disrespectful guy with no discipline or values? Why chose that guy looking that way to make the point? Also, the traditional guy looks Japanese?!? Well, seems like most of us are maybe causation in the forum and amongst students I see this trend as well, I have over 30 students and growing and have black, Latino, white, but no Asians lol! Just not a good pic to represent the point attempting to be made.
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