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guird
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:


Every single rule in early UFC banned some kind of strike, normally pretty effective ones. Not one rule on the limits a grappler could go. UFC was no-holds-barred, but had no qualms barring all kinds of strikes. When they did start banning grappling techniques, they started with small joint manipulation and standing joint locks, the kind easiest to transition from striking and most effective in a clinch. By the time everything stating leveling out, BJJ was already a staple of every MMA training regimen, and there is such a demand for BJJ, they're giving teenages with blue belts their own schools!!!


The only banned strikes in UFC1 were ones to the groin, a ban that was lifted in UFC2. Watching the fights, it seems very unlikely a rule change on groin strikes would have changed the outcome of UFC1 much. I agree that BJJ has some problems, especially at the moment, and it has been the subject of too much hype. It doesn't change the fact that the early UFCs however, had very minimal rules and so very little room for bias. Royce won because he was prepared for fights that involved both striking and grappling, and his opponents weren't. He had an approach that was developed for and tested in a no-holds-barred environment, and which directly attacked the gaps in the knowledge of his opponents. This didn't show that 'BJJ is the ultimate martial art' or anything, (though some people unfortunately did see it that way), it simply showed that one can't afford to neglect grappling if they want to shine in fights where it may be involved.
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guird
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:
In the scenarios I listed (in a clinch), with opponents whose hands are not wrapped or gloves, small circle is extremely effective for a trained Martial Artist.


I'm highly interested in evidence of small joint manipulations being consistently effective in stand-up against skilled and agressive opponents. Can you provide some? It would benefit my training indeed.
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Judodad_karateson
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guird wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:
In the scenarios I listed (in a clinch), with opponents whose hands are not wrapped or gloves, small circle is extremely effective for a trained Martial Artist.


I'm highly interested in evidence of small joint manipulations being consistently effective in stand-up against skilled and agressive opponents. Can you provide some? It would benefit my training indeed.


All antidotal for me, I don't think a study has been done on the subject. What doesn't work for you? Lets talk through it, see if we can troubleshoot your problem.
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guird
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:

All antidotal for me, I don't think a study has been done on the subject. What doesn't work for you? Lets talk through it, see if we can troubleshoot your problem.


In JJJ I practice a few joint locks that may be considered small joint manipulation. The thing is simply that we don't use them during randori, and hence I am not sure I can apply them as I have not done so. If there were evidence that training them the way we do allows them to be consistently used it would help put my doubts to rest, and allow me to focus more of my training on this area. Anecdotes generally aren't considered stong evidence.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guird wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:


Every single rule in early UFC banned some kind of strike, normally pretty effective ones. Not one rule on the limits a grappler could go. UFC was no-holds-barred, but had no qualms barring all kinds of strikes. When they did start banning grappling techniques, they started with small joint manipulation and standing joint locks, the kind easiest to transition from striking and most effective in a clinch. By the time everything stating leveling out, BJJ was already a staple of every MMA training regimen, and there is such a demand for BJJ, they're giving teenages with blue belts their own schools!!!


The only banned strikes in UFC1 were ones to the groin, a ban that was lifted in UFC2. Watching the fights, it seems very unlikely a rule change on groin strikes would have changed the outcome of UFC1 much. I agree that BJJ has some problems, especially at the moment, and it has been the subject of too much hype. It doesn't change the fact that the early UFCs however, had very minimal rules and so very little room for bias. Royce won because he was prepared for fights that involved both striking and grappling, and his opponents weren't. He had an approach that was developed for and tested in a no-holds-barred environment, and which directly attacked the gaps in the knowledge of his opponents. This didn't show that 'BJJ is the ultimate martial art' or anything, (though some people unfortunately did see it that way), it simply showed that one can't afford to neglect grappling if they want to shine in fights where it may be involved.

Solid post!!

I did notice that when the groin strike ban was lifted, it became a target, for obvious reasons. But, not an easy target at times.



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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guird wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:

All antidotal for me, I don't think a study has been done on the subject. What doesn't work for you? Lets talk through it, see if we can troubleshoot your problem.


In JJJ I practice a few joint locks that may be considered small joint manipulation. The thing is simply that we don't use them during randori, and hence I am not sure I can apply them as I have not done so. If there were evidence that training them the way we do allows them to be consistently used it would help put my doubts to rest, and allow me to focus more of my training on this area. Anecdotes generally aren't considered stong evidence.

You make a valid point. If ones not in the practice of using certain techniques often, then the application of it becomes mute, and forgotten, or better yet, rusty as all get out.

I believe that many techniques suffer, i.e., the Ox Jaw block of Shotokan, I've never ever seen it being used in their dojo's except for drilling Kihon.



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Judodad_karateson
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guird wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:

All antidotal for me, I don't think a study has been done on the subject. What doesn't work for you? Lets talk through it, see if we can troubleshoot your problem.


In JJJ I practice a few joint locks that may be considered small joint manipulation. The thing is simply that we don't use them during randori, and hence I am not sure I can apply them as I have not done so. If there were evidence that training them the way we do allows them to be consistently used it would help put my doubts to rest, and allow me to focus more of my training on this area. Anecdotes generally aren't considered stong evidence.


How can you tell me with such confidence they are not effective a few post back, then turn around now and tell me you really haven't had had a change to try them? Of course anecdotal evidence is rarely valid, as I said, there are no scientific studies on the topic, but it beats no experience at all.
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guird
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:


How can you tell me with such confidence they are not effective a few post back, then turn around now and tell me you really haven't had had a change to try them? Of course anecdotal evidence is rarely valid, as I said, there are no scientific studies on the topic, but it beats no experience at all.


I think you have me confused with someone else, I never stated with any certainty that they aren't effective. Yes, anecdotes are worth something.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaypo wrote:
I am a student of a Shorin Ryu'Shotokan based style, and I also train in Kyusho. And I love MMA competition. But I view it as such- competition. They don't allow groin strikes, eye attacks, and small joint locks, and those things are a big part of what TMA's teach. Because they're taught for self defense, not for competition. I watched the first UFC event, and it was totally different. It was the movie "Bloodsport" in real time. Style vs. style. And BJJ USUALLY won. Fighters with a strong grappling base won the majority of the time. Therefore, fighters started to diversify their training and incorporate BJJ, wrestling, etc. There were no time limits at first, and it was done in tournament format. I actually preferred that era!


Some good points here, but I would point out that in one of the early UFCs, I believe Oleg Taktarov won a bout in which he was essentially blind, because he had taken some fingers to the eyes. He was still able to win, and he won on the ground, because he was able to control from that position. Just an observation. I could be way wrong on the fighter, too.

I enjoyed the early era, too, but I don't really think it was going to be sustainable. The evolution of MMA has been fun to watch, and I do believe that better fighters are produced now than then, and better athletes are fighting now.

There are always the arguments in regards to groin attacks, eye gouges, and other similar attacks that many TMAists constantly throw out in regards to discussing the legitimacy of MMA, or the fact that it is a sport. Sport is a different thing to a lot of people, and so is art. I think that MMA is an art in itself, and can produce a lot of the same qualities that other MAs produce in people.

jaypo wrote:
Both have their good and bad attributes. But I believe that "martial arts" are better for mind/body/spirit than "MMA".


I think this just depends. On each person, on their approach to training, etc. Think about the discipline that is required to uphold the training regimen of a pro fighter. Between planning the training and the diet required to make weight, it takes a lot of discipline.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:
MMA was created by the Gracie's as a marketing tool. They started the Dojo storms, where they would go to gyms and challenge fighters, then they created the UFC, where fighters come to them. MMA rules and equipment were designed to favor not just grappling, but newaza specifically. Of course, nothing can beat a solid punch to the jaw, so there is enough variety that most people don't notice this. But make no mistake, BJJ is always be a dominate art in UFC, because that is what UFC was created to exhibit.

MMA is a sport on par with kickboxing or catch wrestling.

As for the photo, it's complete nonsense. There is plenty of style, grace, and technique in the MMA, plenty of brutality in TMA. The most successful MMA combatants have donned Gis years before they ever even though about entering the cage, and doing so only advanced their talents further.


Actually I don't know if I agree with the statement, the part about the UFC being set up for jujitsu. The first UFC fights had pretty much know jujitsu in them, in fact they were pretty different than what you see now days. Originally you saw people with traditional background stepping in and if you came something that anybody with some blended systems who was tough could make it as a fighter, which is fine but hoyce Gracie didn't even make an impact until later on when he was running into guys twice his size that looked like they were gladiators and he was disposing of them, with his skinny physique, this is what pave the way for jujitsu to become popular the way it is today.


I'm not sure which early fights you are referring to, Luther Unleashed, but the first UFCs did feature BJJ, with Royce Gracie being the man displaying his skills. He won UFC 1, 2, and 4, and that was the showcase for BJJ. I don't know that the UFC was designed "specifically" for BJJ, but the mats were padded to an extent which made grappling easier on the body. A regular boxing ring might not have been as nice to grapple on, but I'm willing to bet that a Gracie would have still done it.
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