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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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 Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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kchenault,
The UFC is NOT favourable to grapplers. With five minute rounds and stand-ups for inactivity, it's hardly working in the favour of the grappler.
The UFC has been changed to make it more accessible to the public who want to see knockout's.
The rules in the first four or five UFC's did not favour anyone. If you're saying that no eye-gouging and no biting favours grapplers and that your art cannot defend itself against a grappler without these techniques, then you need to find a better art.
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| I thought the point was that the diffrence was that in street altercations people would be prone to use such techniques? |
The point was that thease are viable weapons to use, and ones you may have o defend against. There was also (IIRC) the point that despite NHB being closer to street-fighting than any other competitions, there is still a signifigant difference between the two.
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| since the clinch can be many things i cant say a specific technique for breaking it since it could be a bear hug/double underhook/MT style clinch etc. but yes you could stay in that range and deliver strikes but I think most would prefer to break and strike especially if they realize the otehr party is trying to get them to the ground. |
Personally, while I would certainly desire to remove adventageous position from my opponent; I cannot see that it is normal that I would look to move out of grappling range at that point (though I can come up with scenerios). I would rather simply work from where I'm at in terms of range.
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| Yes I agree wuch a techniqe can be destracting but that still iisint a fair comparison If i was fighting in a boxing match I would get Thrown off if someone threw a leg kick or a knee because You are fighting under a set of rules but obviously neither of these would be so detrimental in a real fight. |
But I believe that you fight how your practice. If you practice MMA-style with the mindset for those competitions; yo uwill not likely suddenly develop a focus on things like getting bitten when the fight starts.
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| basically what im syaing is, you dont have to do anything half as extreme as putting barbed wire and cinder blocks on the ground. but ry sparring on a stair case some time. or maybe in a really small room. |
Agreed.
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| The UFC is NOT favourable to grapplers. With five minute rounds and stand-ups for inactivity, it's hardly working in the favour of the grappler. |
A rule added to make the fights "more exciting to watch". That said, the use of a (relatively) soft floor and walls, the removal of clothing, the disallowance of weapons, etc. makes a UFC less adventageous to a striker than a bar-room would be.
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| The rules in the first four or five UFC's did not favour anyone. If you're saying that no eye-gouging and no biting favours grapplers and that your art cannot defend itself against a grappler without these techniques, then you need to find a better art. |
That's not a true caracterization... BJJ can fight wihtout going to the ground, but disallowing going to the ground would be disadvantageing BJJ.
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry I think we agree for the most part There are aspects that most MMA fighters dont train for( enviromental weapons/clothing/ biting, etc) but You can for the most part still use realistic training meathods if you choose to add these in.
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A rule added to make the fights "more exciting to watch". That said, the use of a (relatively) soft floor and walls, the removal of clothing, the disallowance of weapons, etc. makes a UFC less adventageous to a striker than a bar-room would be.
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With the exception of weapons(bottles/glasses etc) I dont think Padded floors or walls favor the grappler, in reality there are corners and walls everywhere and a padded floor is usually in favor of the one getting taken down..people get KO'd from getting slammed on that padded floor a hard surface could do alot worse. there are certain times when it favors the grappler, like certain positions or submissions from the gaurd but for the most part I dont think it does. |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry I think we agree for the most part There are aspects that most MMA fighters dont train for( enviromental weapons/clothing/ biting, etc) but You can for the most part still use realistic training meathods if you choose to add these in. |
Weather I agree or disagree depends on what you believe constitutes "realistic training methods". The mantra I've heard from MMA people is "you have to try to do it full speed and full power against resisting opponents". If this is an accurate (and exclusive) representation of what you mean, than I disagree.
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| With the exception of weapons(bottles/glasses etc) I dont think Padded floors or walls favor the grappler, in reality there are corners and walls everywhere and a padded floor is usually in favor of the one getting taken down..people get KO'd from getting slammed on that padded floor a hard surface could do alot worse. |
I should have been more specific, my bad. I'm actually concerned that the padded floors advantage fighting on the ground; particulary important with arts that like sacrifice throws or deliberately putting themselves on the ground (BJJ). The softer surface has some negative impact on footing and striking power as well (certainly sneakers on asphault have better grop than wrestling shoes on canvas), and the soft walls allow someone to get pounded agasint them without much risk of injry.
I've equivocated, when I should have been specifically talking about the upright fighter vs the ground fighter more than the garppler vs the striker (though obviously some apply GvS)
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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The floors used for the UFC are not padded - at least not padded anymore than a boxing ring. They're just a sprung wooden floor with canvas over the top - exactly the same as a boxing/kickboxing ring. I've never heard of a boxer/kickboxer saying the floor was too soft for them in a boxing match !
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Weather I agree or disagree depends on what you believe constitutes "realistic training methods". The mantra I've heard from MMA people is "you have to try to do it full speed and full power against resisting opponents". If this is an accurate (and exclusive) representation of what you mean, than I disagree.
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Basically i think it means you should train realistically obviously for alot of techniques you can do them full power against a resisting opponet assuming you use proper precaution and when neccesary safety equipment, I do realize that some techniques are not applicable and those should be trained as realistically as possible whitch might not mean "full force against a resisiting opponet"
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| I'm actually concerned that the padded floors advantage fighting on the ground; particulary important with arts that like sacrifice throws or deliberately putting themselves on the ground (BJJ). |
Yes I can see how that would applly in some cases but if you pull gaurd you shouldent be in too much danger of getting hurt in the process. What type od throws are you talking about specifically? The only thing i could see affecting a grappler is when shooting alot of time they tend to "bounce" off their knees right before they get the takedown...whitch could be painful on a hard surface.
As far as the footing goes I cant speak for all rings but belive most are pretty similar to a boxing/kickboxing ring as johnny said. but maye im wrong. |
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've fought in a couple of amateur MMA matches, as well as been in the corner for professional MMA fighters such as Elvis Sinosic so I've had the opportunity to see and feel the flooring on many occasions.
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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Warp Spider
Brown Belt
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 615
Location: The Origin of the Universe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:33 am Post subject: |
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A sprung wooden floor with canvas on top is very dissimilar to rough ashpalt, concrete, tiled floors, or even hardwood floors. That type of flooring is comparable to fighting on carpet, though with less traction.
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| The floors used for the UFC are not padded - at least not padded anymore than a boxing ring. They're just a sprung wooden floor with canvas over the top - exactly the same as a boxing/kickboxing ring. |
Compared to a street, or a sidewalk, or a hard-wood floor, or a traction floor over concrete, or a concree stairwell, or most any "real world" envyronment, this is padded.
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| I've never heard of a boxer/kickboxer saying the floor was too soft for them in a boxing match ! |
They don't want to break their skulls when they hit the canvas either... and since all people are euqlly disadvantaged in that case, there is no problem.
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| Basically i think it means you should train realistically obviously for alot of techniques you can do them full power against a resisting opponet assuming you use proper precaution and when neccesary safety equipment, I do realize that some techniques are not applicable and those should be trained as realistically as possible whitch might not mean "full force against a resisiting opponet" |
We do agree that training shoud be realistic. I think we will find differences in our approaches (you'd rather go fulls speed with protection against a resisting opponent in many cases where I would rather go low speed without protection against a resisting opponent).
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| Yes I can see how that would applly in some cases but if you pull gaurd you shouldent be in too much danger of getting hurt in the process. What type od throws are you talking about specifically? The only thing i could see affecting a grappler is when shooting alot of time they tend to "bounce" off their knees right before they get the takedown...whitch could be painful on a hard surface. |
Judo (IIRC) has a good number of throws where you throw yourself to the ground with them; as, I believe, does wrestling. I would have to check to name specific throws.
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| As far as the footing goes I cant speak for all rings but belive most are pretty similar to a boxing/kickboxing ring as johnny said. but maye im wrong. |
I believe they are... and the footing issue is relatively minor (I had thought I had inferred taht, but realize that nuance is hard to accomplish in text).
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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We do agree that training shoud be realistic. I think we will find differences in our approaches (you'd rather go fulls speed with protection against a resisting opponent in many cases where I would rather go low speed without protection against a resisting opponent).
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Yes slowing it down is definetly beneficial I think both meathods have alt to offer but we proabably differ more on the % devoted to each meathod.
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| Judo (IIRC) has a good number of throws where you throw yourself to the ground with them; as, I believe, does wrestling. I would have to check to name specific throws. |
Im certainly not an expert on throws(hopefully that will change since im starting Judo Tonight) but I belive most throws that require you going down aswell would atleast have you land in a dominate position. |
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on the post.
