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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Do you guys have any actual evidence that fighting on a sprung wooden floor generates less power than fighting on aspalt? Because if so I'd like to see it.
The whole "they're not fighting on cement or asphalt" is such a bogus argument.
Firstly, who do you think will end up on the ground, the striker or the grappler? My guess is the person with the better throws. On the Gracie In Action video, the Gracie fighters fought against a karate school who wanted to fight on cement, believing they would have an advantage. The people who ended up on their backs on the ground were (surprise, surprise !!), the karateka.
Secondly, if I'm in a fight, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is scrapes and abrasions.
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
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Warp Spider
Brown Belt
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 615
Location: The Origin of the Universe
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyS wrote: |
Do you guys have any actual evidence that fighting on a sprung wooden floor generates less power than fighting on aspalt? Because if so I'd like to see it.
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It doesn't. The floor generates no power at all.
| JohnnyS wrote: |
The whole "they're not fighting on cement or asphalt" is such a bogus argument.
Firstly, who do you think will end up on the ground, the striker or the grappler? My guess is the person with the better throws. On the Gracie In Action video, the Gracie fighters fought against a karate school who wanted to fight on cement, believing they would have an advantage. The people who ended up on their backs on the ground were (surprise, surprise !!), the karateka.
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I found this fascinating so I flipped a coin 4 times. It came up tails 3 of those times. Obviously carpeted floor greatly favours the tails side. I once fired a high powered rifle at a fly and missed. (It was close though,l I think the scope needs to be sighted in again.) Clearly, flies cannot be shot while standing on bathroom tables. 
Case studies like your example prove nothing. There are so many variables it's rediculous. The Gracies fighters were probrably just plain better fighters.
| JohnnyS wrote: |
Secondly, if I'm in a fight, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is scrapes and abrasions. |
I'd be more concerned about your head or body striking the pavement at high speed. You are right that grapplers have the better throws and takedowns, but a person can also be knocked down by a good striker. It goes both ways.
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Im certainly not an expert on throws(hopefully that will change since im starting Judo Tonight) but I belive most throws that require you going down aswell would atleast have you land in a dominate position. |
My concern is that there are a good many positions which, while tactically dominant, do slam you into the floor. Conversely, there are throws which do not neccessairily put you in a dominant posiion so much as server to bounce your opponent's head off the ground. I feel that canvased playwood causes a dynamic related to these throws which is signifigantly different than a harder surface such as asphault.
To Warp: ROTFL, great post.
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Case studies like your example prove nothing. There are so many variables it's rediculous. The Gracies fighters were probrably just plain better fighters. |
It's hard to "prove" anything in MA, but anyone who knows anything would not argue that the better grappler has the best chance of ending up on top. unless you are going ot argue that Karate teaches superior takedowns, throws, takedown defenses and positioning that BJJ then your argument really holds no weight.
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| You are right that grapplers have the better throws and takedowns, but a person can also be knocked down by a good striker. It goes both ways. |
A) If you hit someone with a good shot and knock them down then they arent usally in a position to be a threat despite what they land on. if you knock someone out why does it matter if they hit their head on the way down? |
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Warp Spider
Brown Belt
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 615
Location: The Origin of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| TJS wrote: |
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| Case studies like your example prove nothing. There are so many variables it's rediculous. The Gracies fighters were probrably just plain better fighters. |
It's hard to "prove" anything in MA, but anyone who knows anything would not argue that the better grappler has the best chance of ending up on top. |
I hate to disappoint you, but you were the one that said the better grappler would end up on top. Apparently, according to what you said, you just tore apart your own argument. I stated that the Gracies were probrably better fighters. As in, better fighters all around. I bet a 7th Dan in any type of Karate could absolutely pulverize a yellow belt in BJJ, does that make Karate better than BJJ? No, it just makes the 7th Dan a better fighter. That is why examples like this prove nothing. The Gracies fighters were just plain better fighters. I suspect they would have one regardless of the flooring.
| TJS wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You are right that grapplers have the better throws and takedowns, but a person can also be knocked down by a good striker. It goes both ways. |
A) If you hit someone with a good shot and knock them down then they arent usally in a position to be a threat despite what they land on. if you knock someone out why does it matter if they hit their head on the way down? |
If I speared a person, they would likely fall to the ground. The spear itself is not likely to cause a knockout, until the person's head impacts the ground, that is. Knocking a person to the ground does not necessarily mean they will be knocked out or even seriously injured by the strike itself.
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I suppose one test here would be to go back to the UFCs and see if you have grapplers hitting the ground or not.
Not only have I seen them hit the ground first, and hit the ground deliberately, I've seen a grappler (I believe it was a Gracie) working an arm-bar on a much larget opponent who was literally bouncing the grappler's upper spine off the floor a couple times (then the arm/shoulder lock caught and the biger fighter tapped out).
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| I hate to disappoint you, but you were the one that said the better grappler would end up on top. |
Yes I did, even if the Karateka Was a 7th Dan a BJJ Purple Belt will proabably be a better grappler.
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| according to what you said, you just tore apart your own argument. |
No I didint, once again read into things unless you think Karate has superior grappling techniqus your are wrong again.
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| I stated that the Gracies were probrably better fighters. As in, better fighters all around |
Thats proabably true, funny thing is the little Brother Royce fought in this thing called the UFC...Suprisingly he showed the better GRAPPLER dictated the pace and location of the fight...but once again all these repeated fights "prove nothing"..
Here is another "pointless" video of a Karateka vs a BJJ Guy on a Nice Concrete floor with nice concrete walls, suprisingly it seems too look like what me and Johnny have been describing will happen in most cases.
http://www.*.com/dl_goto.asp?id=64
I love the repeated attempts to eye gouge also...always smart to extend your arms like that.
Jerry im sure there are instances where the "grappler" may have hit first but Ican recall Royces first few fights off the top of my head-
1)Art Jimmerson- Royce shoots and gets a double leg slamming his opponet down and taking the mount(juslt like the above video)
2) Ken Shamrock-He shoots ken steps back and underhooks royce flips him over on his butt/back...royce turns around again gets up and pulls ken down into his gaurd..ken sits back for an ankle lock royce follows him back locks one of his leg and secures a side choke.
3) Gerard Gordaue-they struggle, Royce gets him up against the fence Royce eventually sweeps him and then follows him down taking the mount, gerard turns his back and royce chokes him out
Now granted that isint all of the fights but A 170 pound guys beating 3 larger and stronger proffessional fighters without getting punched or kicked a single time seems like an effective meathod to me he might risk hitting somethien hard but you also risk getting hit by standing and striking with someone larger than you.. I dont ever recall seeing royce in a Dangerous position as far as a Wall or concrete floor was concered. The only time he did end up on his back was against someone ALOT bigger or stronger. |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I certainly may be wrong on who the grappler in question was in the UFC... It's been a long time.
I'm certainly not about to argue that BJJ is not an effective art (I never have made that assertion), and I'm certainly not about to de-emphasize the importance of grappling (I spend way too much time doing it to make that assertion); I was just pointing out that the difference in surface/wall in a UFC match is more favorable to being on the ground than your average social location; and that the lack of things wich normially occur and which aid the effect of strikes (say, shoes), is more favorable to grapplers than your average conditions.
Thanks for the clip, I'll add it to my collection. That siad, the Karatika in question was completely outmatched (what the hell was that first swing at empty air supposed to do?) but it is anticdotal... which, while useful for establishing what *can* happen, does not really show tendancies.
That said, I think that is the tendancy of a BJJ practitioner against a Shotokan practitioner; and I think that is largely the result of training methodology. Of coruse, if Shotokan changed how they trianed, they might not be doing Shotokan any more 
As a note: The wall was definately not bare concrete (you can see the seam of whatever is over the wall where it meets the floor) and I doubt highly that the floor was (or they are both now limping from knee damage).
- Some corrections made for typos.
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Last edited by JerryLove on Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Yes the karateka was outmatched, But he accepted the fight and there was a large bet placed on it aswell by both parties..so who knows.
I think your right about the wall but that floor looked and sounded like it was pretty solid to me  |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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You know what they say about a fool and his money
Props to him for walking in the door and trying his luck... but he was foolish to bet on the outcome.
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on the post.
