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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about if you have lots of experience in a martial arts style that doesn't use rank? In a fight you might be just as dangerous as somebody who has a black belt in a style that uses rank but your style doesn't use rank so you don't hold any official rank, how would the courts look at that?
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 957
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thoughts, here.

So... if someone breaks into one's home, is one better off going to town with MA? Or should one just shoot'em?
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14145
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get a kick out of it when someone implies that a black belt holder should be held at a much higher standard because someone has a black belt.

Why?

Who says that that person is a black belt or who says that a black belt means that that person is even capable??

Laypersons who've not the minimum of an idea as to what the black belt truly is or what it truly isn't have spread that falsehood for as long as I can remember. Educating the courts as to the reality of the black belt, therefore, eliminating the mystic surrounding the black belt.

Mitigating circumstances have to be rationalized!!

Imho!!



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1673

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of the reasons why it is a very wise idea to keep one’s practice of martial arts private. Even if absolute secrecy is not possible, avoiding any mention of it outside a limited circle is not a bad idea. The less people know about it, the better it is.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14145
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A police officer once told my dad that if you shoot someone in your front/back/side yard, drag them inside the house, then call the police, not beforehand.



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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
Interesting thoughts, here.

So... if someone breaks into one's home, is one better off going to town with MA? Or should one just shoot'em?


It depends on your jurisdiction. Some recognize castle doctrine and stand your ground. Other have a greater duty to retreat. That means retreat as far a practical. You do not have to retreat past your child's room where they are sleeping.

Shooting vs. MA. It depends on the level of force they initiate and if they submit. Deadly force is deadly force, whether it be with a gun, knife or hands. If the force you respond with is reasonably necessary or not is the ultimate question. This can change based on individual. A 90 year old grandmother will likely have a lower threshold than a young, fit male.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
Interesting thoughts, here.

So... if someone breaks into one's home, is one better off going to town with MA? Or should one just shoot'em?


It depends on your jurisdiction. Some recognize castle doctrine and stand your ground. Other have a greater duty to retreat. That means retreat as far a practical. You do not have to retreat past your child's room where they are sleeping.

Shooting vs. MA. It depends on the level of force they initiate and if they submit. Deadly force is deadly force, whether it be with a gun, knife or hands. If the force you respond with is reasonably necessary or not is the ultimate question. This can change based on individual. A 90 year old grandmother will likely have a lower threshold than a young, fit male.


It also depends where you are.

In the UK, if you shoot someone, you are almost certainly going to jail (unless the armed coppers shoot you first). That's because it would almost certainly be premeditated. That's because our firearms laws require that guns be kept in one locked container and the ammo in another, when not in use. So if you have time to unlock both cases, load the gun, and then shoot someone, you probably had time to phone the police and/or hide or escape.

If on the other hand you use martial arts, it could be argued that you were caught off guard, panicked in the confrontation, and reacted instinctively in panic and self defence.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The premise of this post is pretty funny.

This hearkens back to when I was a kid and the whole "register your hands as deadly weapons" lunacy was being talked about.

Why would anyone announce that they are a skilled fighter?

Lets take a scenario for instance. I thug has a knife in his pants but doesn't feel like he needs it. The thug thinks he can thump you a bit but then you announce you're a black belt... what do you think happens next? What if he has friends or a gun. You loose all advantage once you open you're mouth and utter those words. Kinda like saying just shoot me.

This whole premise that you're going to be looked at as if you're the attacker somehow because you have a BB is preposterous.

If you're attacker starts the fight and you are merely defending yourself and try to talk them down then I see little chance of you being judged more harshly than him if their are witnesses present. If not then it's pretty much a mute point. If their is a camera... well in my mind that's even better. A picture is worth a thousand words. These days everyone is filming.

If you are fighting for your life in a life or death situation I see little reason to worry about whether you're a BB or not. At that point it matters little whether you are trained or not because you will have the same reaction as any Joe on the streets would have... fight for your life by any means possible.

What I'm saying is there is no distinction other than you have had training. The only thing that I feel would jam you up is if you reacted beyond what was reasonable per the circumstance. Essentially if you hit the guy and he rolls into a ball and you decide to really teach him a lesson and go all gang busters on him then you will be in just as much trouble as anyone else.

If this makes so much sense then why do you not call out that you have a concealed gun before actually reaching to pull it out? Or better yet why is it not a law that you have to carry a sign that announces to everyone that you're packing? Kinda defeats the point doesn't it? I guess we should all wear our concealed weapons out where the bad guys can see them so they have a better chance of shooting you first and while we're at it lets all wear t-shirts that announce our grade with flashing batter powered lights that read I'm a black belt so you had better sucker punch me or ambush me if you want to win. Really??????

The law doesn't have a distinction on BB's and non-BB's. It's pretty clear in that you may use reasonable force to defend yourself and deadly force if you feel your life is in peril. Has nothing to do with a BB.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
Interesting thoughts, here.

So... if someone breaks into one's home, is one better off going to town with MA? Or should one just shoot'em?


It depends on your jurisdiction. Some recognize castle doctrine and stand your ground. Other have a greater duty to retreat. That means retreat as far a practical. You do not have to retreat past your child's room where they are sleeping.

Shooting vs. MA. It depends on the level of force they initiate and if they submit. Deadly force is deadly force, whether it be with a gun, knife or hands. If the force you respond with is reasonably necessary or not is the ultimate question. This can change based on individual. A 90 year old grandmother will likely have a lower threshold than a young, fit male.


It also depends where you are.

In the UK, if you shoot someone, you are almost certainly going to jail (unless the armed coppers shoot you first). That's because it would almost certainly be premeditated. That's because our firearms laws require that guns be kept in one locked container and the ammo in another, when not in use. So if you have time to unlock both cases, load the gun, and then shoot someone, you probably had time to phone the police and/or hide or escape.

If on the other hand you use martial arts, it could be argued that you were caught off guard, panicked in the confrontation, and reacted instinctively in panic and self defence.


Much of Europe is similar.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:


Lets take a scenario for instance. I thug has a knife in his pants but doesn't feel like he needs it. The thug thinks he can thump you a bit but then you announce you're a black belt... what do you think happens next? What if he has friends or a gun. You loose all advantage once you open you're mouth and utter those words. Kinda like saying just shoot me.

.


Yep. That's why we have a different interpretation of 'fighting stance' depending on whether we're sparring or practicing self defence.

Taking it to the extreme, I'm reminded of my old aikido teacher (he made aikido practical by incorporating his military experience). It was comical to see. A huge tank of a man retreating backwards with his hands up pretending to cry with blind panic, to lull his 'attacker' into a deeper sense of security and superiority, so that when he bounced in and took the (wooden) knife and applied an arm bar, the attacker would be totally taken by surprise.
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