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QCM
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 03 Jan 2015
Posts: 1

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would they know in Court you are a black belt ?
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the point, they wouldn't. The law is the same for everyone, martial artist or not. You are not expected to have more or less sense if you are trained in a combat art. If you act within your rights and in a lawful way, you will not fall foul of the law. If you go further than you should with regards to violence or even intimidation, you can suffer the consequences, just like everyone else, even the police.
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chiliphil1
Orange Belt
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Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 225


PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
That's the point, they wouldn't. The law is the same for everyone, martial artist or not. You are not expected to have more or less sense if you are trained in a combat art. If you act within your rights and in a lawful way, you will not fall foul of the law. If you go further than you should with regards to violence or even intimidation, you can suffer the consequences, just like everyone else, even the police.


I think that sums it up perfectly! Only do what you HAVE to do in self defense and no more. If you stick to that you should have no worries.

I did want to mention an interesting tid bit though, did you guys know that back in the 70's in his prime Chuck Norris walked around with a whole group of body guards? Do you know why? Because he did not want to be sued by someone whom attacked him and he defended against!

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind here is not the criminal charges you would face but the civil ones. In other words in a clear cut case of self defense the police are not likely to even arrest you much less have the case go to trial, however what you have to worry about is when the attacker tries to sue you, that is when all the training comes out into the public realm, this is the point where an attorney is going to call you the big bad Bruce Lee wanna be who was just out looking for a fight.. And believe me the attorneys who sue innocent people on behalf of convicted criminals are the bottom of the barrel, they will not hesitate to bring out any fact they find about you and exploit it.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chiliphil1 wrote:
Harkon72 wrote:
That's the point, they wouldn't. The law is the same for everyone, martial artist or not. You are not expected to have more or less sense if you are trained in a combat art. If you act within your rights and in a lawful way, you will not fall foul of the law. If you go further than you should with regards to violence or even intimidation, you can suffer the consequences, just like everyone else, even the police.


I think that sums it up perfectly! Only do what you HAVE to do in self defense and no more. If you stick to that you should have no worries.

I did want to mention an interesting tid bit though, did you guys know that back in the 70's in his prime Chuck Norris walked around with a whole group of body guards? Do you know why? Because he did not want to be sued by someone whom attacked him and he defended against!

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind here is not the criminal charges you would face but the civil ones. In other words in a clear cut case of self defense the police are not likely to even arrest you much less have the case go to trial, however what you have to worry about is when the attacker tries to sue you, that is when all the training comes out into the public realm, this is the point where an attorney is going to call you the big bad Bruce Lee wanna be who was just out looking for a fight.. And believe me the attorneys who sue innocent people on behalf of convicted criminals are the bottom of the barrel, they will not hesitate to bring out any fact they find about you and exploit it.

Great posts, both of them!!

Courts in the USA tend to allow the most minimums when it comes to self-defense. Did you leave at the very first opportunity, or did you continue to hit your attacker? Courts don't like it when one takes the law into their own hands! It's a thin line to define for us, but not for the courts!



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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many times have you heard someone say this?

"If you touch my wife/children/car/pint I'll kill you!"

Do you realise that under the eyes of the law making that statement is a criminal offence? Remarkably, I fell foul of this. I was walking in our village when I met an elderly lady that seemed quite upset. I asked her what the matter was, she pointed to a man over the street. "He told me he would give me a good slapping if he saw me." She said. I laughed and made a joke; "Don't worry, if he comes near you, I'll shoot him for you!" I crossed the street and walked home. Half an hour later there's a knock on my door, there stood two police officers; "It's been reported sir that you have an un-licensed firearm with the intent to commit murder, can we come in?" I couldn't believe it, the little old lady had reported me to the police and told them I was out to kill someone. This is a true story, and a bitter lesson.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
How many times have you heard someone say this?

"If you touch my wife/children/car/pint I'll kill you!"

Do you realise that under the eyes of the law making that statement is a criminal offence? Remarkably, I fell foul of this. I was walking in our village when I met an elderly lady that seemed quite upset. I asked her what the matter was, she pointed to a man over the street. "He told me he would give me a good slapping if he saw me." She said. I laughed and made a joke; "Don't worry, if he comes near you, I'll shoot him for you!" I crossed the street and walked home. Half an hour later there's a knock on my door, there stood two police officers; "It's been reported sir that you have an un-licensed firearm with the intent to commit murder, can we come in?" I couldn't believe it, the little old lady had reported me to the police and told them I was out to kill someone. This is a true story, and a bitter lesson.

Solid post!!

Verbal threats need to be reported to the police, and they shouldn't be taken lightly, imho!!



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27790
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
How many times have you heard someone say this?

"If you touch my wife/children/car/pint I'll kill you!"

Do you realise that under the eyes of the law making that statement is a criminal offence? Remarkably, I fell foul of this. I was walking in our village when I met an elderly lady that seemed quite upset. I asked her what the matter was, she pointed to a man over the street. "He told me he would give me a good slapping if he saw me." She said. I laughed and made a joke; "Don't worry, if he comes near you, I'll shoot him for you!" I crossed the street and walked home. Half an hour later there's a knock on my door, there stood two police officers; "It's been reported sir that you have an un-licensed firearm with the intent to commit murder, can we come in?" I couldn't believe it, the little old lady had reported me to the police and told them I was out to kill someone. This is a true story, and a bitter lesson.


Crazy! I'm curious as to whether or not she reported the initial threat of the other man. His would probably have been more likely to happen. I'm surprised she reported you, who offered to help her.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it did happen. It just goes to show you have to be careful what you say to people; you don't know how they see the world.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1729

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A one hundred percent clear open and shut case for self defense is rarely seen. In most cases the process will be long and any trial is quite costly. The only way to keep the law on one's side is to make escape the ultimate aim of any self-defense situation.

Running away should be one's first defensive move and wherever this is impossible, it must be a close second. No matter who "started it", authorities and witnesses tend to see the "winner" as the aggressor. However, if one defends oneself after attempting to escape an attack and being pursued it is very difficult to argue against self defense. It is also difficult if the defender defended himself in the process of escaping the attacker. Even a casual witness can tell the difference between someone attempting to escape and one fighting. If there is no attempt to break away and escape, it is a fight and fighting is a criminally sanctionned offense.
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Titanium
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 08 Aug 2015
Posts: 259
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Styles: Wado-Kai & Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the UK you have to be so careful with self defense.
Sometimes, the attacker end up suiting the defender for injury and wins.

Truly messed up system over here at present.
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