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NightOwl
Black Belt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1097
Location: Lost on the West Coast
Styles: Working on Judo and BJJ
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 Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I've never been able to find much mention of dim mak in martial arts history outside of modern times, suggesting that it is mostly a modern misinterpretation/fabrication of past martial arts. You could say that the boxers of the boxer's rebellion in China claimed supernatural powers (such as being able to catch bullets) but they ended up losing really badly so I wouldn't put too much stock in them. Likewise, I've never seen anyone who could actually pull off dim mak when working with someone who wasn't already a believer.
As for one hit kills, I just remembered one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang_Lee Jang Lee was a somewhat famous kung fu star, although he was ethnically korean and practiced TKD as opposed to kung fu. The famous story was that one day some crazy person pulled a knife on him and in order to subdue him Lee kicked the guy...who ended up dying. It was sort of a freak accident and obviously most people kicked in the head recover afterward.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
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Capt Jakk
Yellow Belt
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Minnesota
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Trying to include some JKD
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think a one hit death punch is possible because of commotio cordis. Wikipedia has what appears to be a decently cited article on it. En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis
I came across it while reading a review of a book about the death toll of baseball. It is when non-penetrating trauma occurs to a particular part of the chest exactly between heart beats and causes cardiac arrest.
I can see this acciidentally happening to someone in a fight but I very much doubt someone could do it intentionally. So I have to say it's technically possible but extremely impractical. |
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Alaric
White Belt
Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Posts: 10
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Tang Soo Do, Muay Thai, Western Boxing
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Capt Jakk wrote: |
I think a one hit death punch is possible because of commotio cordis. Wikipedia has what appears to be a decently cited article on it. En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis
I came across it while reading a review of a book about the death toll of baseball. It is when non-penetrating trauma occurs to a particular part of the chest exactly between heart beats and causes cardiac arrest.
I can see this acciidentally happening to someone in a fight but I very much doubt someone could do it intentionally. So I have to say it's technically possible but extremely impractical. |
Agreed. There's also another thing that may be of interest, which used to be used a lot by medics duing cardiac arrest, called the 'precordial thump.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precordial_thump
In this they basially used a hammerfist to the sternum, but done in a very specific way so as to minimise injury. The concussion can cause a small amount of depolarisation that can restore sinus rhythm, if you're very lucky. Long story short, trama to the chest can cause changes in heart activity.
Of course, this is rare. Look at all the boxers or MMA guys who trade blows to the mediastinum and walk away fine. I don't think that anyone can argue that someone like Tyson or Rutten can't generate more power than the guy showing 'dim mak' in Fight Science. And there is no particular technique, the entire phenomenon is predicated simply on hitting the right place (mediastinum) at the right time (ventricular repolarisation/T-wave).
So it's possible to stop/start the heart with blows, but very difficult and exceedingly rare. Plus, the element of chance involved (Hitting at just the right time in the cardiac cycle) makes it untenable as an actual technique. |
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MMA_Jim
Blue Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 275
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Capt Jakk wrote: |
I think a one hit death punch is possible because of commotio cordis. Wikipedia has what appears to be a decently cited article on it. En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis
I came across it while reading a review of a book about the death toll of baseball. It is when non-penetrating trauma occurs to a particular part of the chest exactly between heart beats and causes cardiac arrest.
I can see this acciidentally happening to someone in a fight but I very much doubt someone could do it intentionally. So I have to say it's technically possible but extremely impractical. |
This occurs in young children who havent fully developed their bodies yet....
Put it this way- the death touch is so impractical that theres no modern evidence (say within the past 100 years) of anyone pulling it off or proving its able to work. |
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Alaric
White Belt
Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Posts: 10
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Tang Soo Do, Muay Thai, Western Boxing
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| MMA_Jim wrote: |
This occurs in young children who havent fully developed their bodies yet.... |
It's more common in kids, but still possible in adults. "28% of the cases were aged over 18 years, with the oldest reported in a 44-year-old woman."-http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/555448_3
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Put it this way- the death touch is so impractical that theres no modern evidence (say within the past 100 years) of anyone pulling it off or proving its able to work. |
Agreed. |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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The brain does not regulate heart rate. The SA (Sinoatrial) node of the heart regulates the heart rate. The human brain can completely shut down and the heart will continue to beat until the muscle's supply of oxygen is depleted (breating is regulated by the brain).
The heart rate will speed up and slow down as blood pressure and vessel dialation changes. However, this is an indirect relationship to brain activity. Basically, the show is wrong and what it said was not completely based in medical science.
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"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius." |
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Capt Jakk
Yellow Belt
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Minnesota
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Trying to include some JKD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MMA_Jim wrote: |
| This occurs in young children who havent fully developed their bodies yet.... |
Alaric already showed that this is not true. When you read more about the condition it can be truly scary. If it happens, the person has a 1 in 5 chance of surviving, provided emergency action is taken right away. Chest protection doesn't keep an individual safe either as it has happened to baseball catchers, hockey goalies, and people wearing kevlar vests. Just be glad it's very rare. I only came across one incident that happened at a karate tournament but was unable to find the original article about it.
| MMA_Jim wrote: |
| Put it this way- the death touch is so impractical that theres no modern evidence (say within the past 100 years) of anyone pulling it off or proving its able to work. |
I agree that it is impractical as there is no way to have the intended result occur reliably. However, I have to put it into the "possible" category because there is a medical condition that explains it. Most likely some idiot in ancient China got lucky and then claimed knowledge of "secret techniques" in order to make some money. |
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Alaric
White Belt
Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Posts: 10
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Tang Soo Do, Muay Thai, Western Boxing
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| ps1 wrote: |
The brain does not regulate heart rate. The SA (Sinoatrial) node of the heart regulates the heart rate.
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Not quite true. You are correct about the sino-atrial node having a major role: it's a collection of cells that can create a rhythmical pacemaker potential spontaneously, and is a big influence on the heartrate. However, the CNS does also have a huge role in regulating the heart rate, through both parasympathetic (vagus) nerves and sympathetic (from the sympathetic trunk) nerves.
The vagus nerve acts on the SA node, releasing a neurotransmitter (acetylcholine) that slows the generation of action potentials by the node, overall slowing the heartbeat. (Side note: atropine, a drug given sometimes during a cardiac arrest, blocks these neurotransmitters from binding the heart cells, thereby preventing the Vagus nerve from slowing the heartrate.)
The sympathetic nerves coming from T2-T4 of the spine are more diffuse in their effect, hitting the entire heart and releasing the neurotransmitter norepinephrine. It can increase the heartrate, force of contraction and speed of electrical conduction within the heart. (This is why beta-blockers can be used to slow down the heartrate, by preventing norepinephrine from binding to the heart.) |
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Menya
White Belt
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I dont know the science of it, but hitting someone at the back of the head at the top of the neck, right below the skull would do serious damage. Wouldn't it? I just gave myself a sturdy tap there and felt the sensitivity, so a full force punch might do something.
Im not saying its a one technique killer though. |
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dwarf2
Yellow Belt
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi im new to the forum ,on this dim mak thing dont most forms use two hands at a time . then it is possible to put someone in a position and hit them with a certain type of strike and death could occur. |
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on the post.
