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Bushido-Ruach
Yellow Belt
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 96
Location: California
Styles: Self-defense MMA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
| Bushido-Ruach, you stated that these things work because they've been passed down from ealier generations that put them to task on the battlefield. Paraphrased. |
What I meant TG is that they were developed in a day and age where life and death struggles were the norm, when civilizations were more "rough" than the one we live in today. Bach then, it was kill or be killed much more often than we are used to. Being that as it may, when nerve and pressure point knowledge was being built upon as it came to hand-to-hand fighting, they were proven in actual combat.
As far as scientific evidence, still, the best I can suggest concerning this would be to get with an accupuncturist that is also versed in such systems as Eagle or Tiger styles of kung fu. These systems, along with White Crane, Snake (particularly cobra chuan fa) and Mantis styles, are all based upon nerve and pressure point attacks. As proof of this, look at the hand formations...tiger claw...OK, for a tiger, it works...but for a man trying to hit or scratch you with his finger tips???? Doesn't make much sense. But when you realize that both Tiger and Eagle style claws are actually grasping and applying huge amounts of pressure to nerve clusters and pressure point areas, it makes a lot of sense.
Look at the Mantis hand formation...your index finger slightly curved...to actually HIT someone with that? Come on, now, you just broke your finger...unless you are hitting with less power than you and I are today with our hands and fists...and hitting weak points on the body. That makes a lot more sense.
Anyways, that's my suggestion to all who may think pressure points or nerve targeting techniques are bologna, because this seems to be the historical origin of nerve attacks - or better yet, Dim Muk striking points. They are based upon the science of accupuncture, where certain (not all) accutpunture points can be used to attack and damage the body instead of for healing. These same points can also heal, but they also have martial combat applications.
See ya around, guys...gotta go to bed!
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Using no Way, AS Way...
Using no Limitation, AS Limitation |
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FitOrDie!
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Bushido-Ruach wrote: |
| FitOrDie! wrote: |
| Bushido-Ruach wrote: |
Here is another example, in my own words so that I don't infringe anyone in the same field...along the Stomach meridian is points 16 and 17 (about an inch above the nipple and on the nipple, respectively), if either one of these points are struck hard enough (or both simultaneously - "hard enough" being 12 pounds of pressure or greater), they will shock the heart and it will stop functioning. The attacker won't have a heart attack, it will simply stop pumping.
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You have any proof of all this? |
Kodenkan Ju-Jitsu, from which my humble martial arts history began, has many such points. There is another point along the stomach meridian located near the bladder that when struck will cause the attacker to begin heaving, as if vomiting, I have personally seen this one many times...it seems to be a favorite amongh black belts sparring one another...seeing who can tag the other first.
Some systems still retain such anatomical point attacks, but as I said in my response to Bushido-man, most have purposely stopped teaching such techniques for fear of misuse. Good evidence can be found in any black belt of a system still retaining such knowledge, you would just have to find such a system near you.
I have had some of the less dangerous ones done to me, kind of like when Polise Officers have to be tazed when they are being tazer certified, they have to know what it feels like in case they ever have to use it. They aren't fun to experience...but they are real and they do work. |
None of this is proof of the ability to make a heart just stop pumping blood.
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Increase work capacity over broad time and modal domains. Intensity is key.
Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price.
-Sun Tzu |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushido-Ruach wrote: |
[W]hen you realize that both Tiger and Eagle style claws are actually grasping and applying huge amounts of pressure to nerve clusters and pressure point areas, it makes a lot of sense.
Look at the Mantis hand formation . . . hitting weak points on the body. That makes a lot more sense.
Anyways, that's my suggestion to all who may think pressure points or nerve targeting techniques are bologna, because this seems to be the historical origin of nerve attacks . . . They are based upon the science of accupuncture . . .
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I believe it to be easier for many martial artists to accept acupressure points, that certain areas simply have a greater nerve cluster and so may be the focus of martial arts applications. In Soo Bahk Do, the claim is that a punch should be delivered to the "In Choong," the area between the nose and the upper lip (the "mustache"), rather than to the chin, to hit a nerve center in the face.
When a friend of mine was working with another friend and me in Isshinryu, he showed us a nerve pinch that he'd learned about at some point. If grabbed by an opponent (say you're a teacher and there's a troublesome teenage student), there's a spot that I call the "flare" where the pectoral muscle merges with the deltoids. I put one hand on his shoulder, as though grabbing him, and his hand came up, his first two fingers and thumb seizing deep and pinching me there--hard. There was a kind of jolt that caused my hand and arm to twitch "up," releasing his shoulder. When he did it with the other fellow, who was taller but slim, he jumped and swore it was a tickle he'd felt.
I have no problem with thinking of nerve centers and acupressure points in martial arts techniques, Bushido_Ruach. It's just that I don't think of them as debilitating if they're within the peripheral nervous system. If you're speaking of the central nervous system, meaning a strike that can damage the spinal cord or brain, well, that's a much different story.
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Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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MMA_Jim
Blue Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 275
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sigh......
heres the biggest problem with all these theories about deadly pressure point strikes- they dont seem to take into account that these nerves have MUSCLES surrounding them!
Your muscles are like armor, and even where theres chinks in the armor, the muscles adjacent to each other push up against each other so as to still protect.
It takes more than a little hypothesis- as these are NOT theories
(theory =/= something I thought of)
Show it ACTUALLY happening. Its been passed down from generation to generation- so is sickle cell anemia- it doesnt mean its GOOD.
More people train karate or any other traditional striking art than do jiu jitsu the world over. I can show you over 100 examples of a rear naked choke or an armbar being applied as proof nevermind that they are ALSO being applied against world class fighters- is 1 example too much to ask? |
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The BB of C
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 1264
Location: Orlando, Florida
Styles: Kuk Sool Won, Isshin-ryu, Capoeira, Brazillian Jiu Jutsu, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Techniques like these were developed for the really high ranks of karate or ninjutsu and other things like that. There's a lot of Chinese and Korean styles with similar concepts. They were developed to be used in war if the user found himself weaponless. They're developed to kill and since the early 1900s (also note this was before any kind of good motion photography) when different styles really started to grow by leaps and bounds - there hasn't been much need. Obviously nobody is going to use these at a friendly tournament. So since then they have been passed down through the higher ranks from master to student for a while. Weather the techniques have been lost or not really can't be known for sure. The only sure-fire way to know that is to actually do it - like you said. Which is understandable. But here's the thing, is it really worth someone's life?
Truth is when you strike the chest hard enough, reguardless of the muscles, the kinetic energy can travel through. Like brick breakers going through 20 cinderblocks at a time. If there's enough kinetic energy travelling through the body it can disrupt the heartbeat which we all know can cause some painful side effects. Or even if there's enough, it can stop the heart entirely. I'm sure the scientists took that into consideration when they conducted the experiment. "Fight Science" had a lot of flaws in their experimentation. But I didn't see any that were that oblivious.
There's a lot of different types of dim mak techniques. Part of me thinks that Ninjutsu expert chose that one to demonstrate because it demonstrated brute force (which the instruments could measure) and not anything that involved nerves which cannot be measured too easily. The main flaw with that particular dim mak technique is that there are techniques that can bring the body to absorb the blow. There's also ways to condition the chest to be able to take that blow. But there are other dim mak techniques that focus around nerves. I always call it the dark side of acupuncture. |
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MMA_Jim
Blue Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 275
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The BB of C wrote: |
Techniques like these were developed for the really high ranks of karate or ninjutsu and other things like that. There's a lot of Chinese and Korean styles with similar concepts. They were developed to be used in war if the user found himself weaponless. They're developed to kill and since the early 1900s (also note this was before any kind of good motion photography) when different styles really started to grow by leaps and bounds - there hasn't been much need. Obviously nobody is going to use these at a friendly tournament. So since then they have been passed down through the higher ranks from master to student for a while. Weather the techniques have been lost or not really can't be known for sure. The only sure-fire way to know that is to actually do it - like you said. Which is understandable. But here's the thing, is it really worth someone's life?
Truth is when you strike the chest hard enough, reguardless of the muscles, the kinetic energy can travel through. Like brick breakers going through 20 cinderblocks at a time. If there's enough kinetic energy travelling through the body it can disrupt the heartbeat which we all know can cause some painful side effects. Or even if there's enough, it can stop the heart entirely. I'm sure the scientists took that into consideration when they conducted the experiment. "Fight Science" had a lot of flaws in their experimentation. But I didn't see any that were that oblivious.
There's a lot of different types of dim mak techniques. Part of me thinks that Ninjutsu expert chose that one to demonstrate because it demonstrated brute force (which the instruments could measure) and not anything that involved nerves which cannot be measured too easily. The main flaw with that particular dim mak technique is that there are techniques that can bring the body to absorb the blow. There's also ways to condition the chest to be able to take that blow. But there are other dim mak techniques that focus around nerves. I always call it the dark side of acupuncture. |
That really says it all- are you really going to put all your faith into a technique that you've never ever used, and possibly even the person that trained you never ever used, when you're in a fight for your life?
I can teach someone to practice an armbar from the guard 1000 times over. The way you learn to apply it changes drastically when you actually attempt it against a resisting opponent. |
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FitOrDie!
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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You know what these Dim Mak things are? They're just like ghosts. You meet people, time and again, who knew someone's roomate's brother's whatever... every one who has heard of one or believes in them seems to know someone who can do it... but no one has ever actually seen it themselves. Every now and then, as in ghosts, you see a TV show about one, and you say "Hey! See? It's real!"
Yet, still, never a shred of proof, lots of theories, and no one has actually seen one themselves...
OOOoooOOOooo...
BOO!
_________________
Increase work capacity over broad time and modal domains. Intensity is key.
Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price.
-Sun Tzu |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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The battlefield usage is not a valid arguement, for one major reason; on the battlefield, there would usually be some form of armor worn for protection. If you can't strike the nerve, then you aren't going to get any results. These techniques could not have been developed or used on the battlefield, due to the use of protective coverings of some type.
The main things developed for battlefield usage were weapons and weapons techniques. Hand-to-hand combat has always been of a secondary concern to battlefield warriors throughout the centuries.
Whether or not these techniques were designed for the high ranks or masters of the arts, is speculation at best. There just isn't enough proof to go around.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I'm not buying it. Fight Science was more about entertainment than actual science. They don't take into account the brains ability to deal with pain. This assumes that it hurts so bad that the brain sends out a paralyzing signal. Pain threshold really comes into play here. Think back to the first time someone pushed the radial pressure point on your wrist. It hurt bad and you dropped to your knees. Now, it's probably a minor annoyance.
The mystique of martial arts in the past was such that masters wanted laymen to think they could do these things. It's a basic psychological operations play. Make your enemy think you're tougher than you really are and he won't want to fight or will fight with fear. It's a trick, nothing more.
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"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius." |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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As I've always experienced, the lay person is not satisfied with one's ability to do any feat that they themselves cannot do and which is difficult enough that they have a hard time imagining themselves doing unless magic is invoked.
I have on multiple occasions had people tell me that my ability to do moderately acrobatic feats of balance CANNOT be "just practice and training" as I claim. They ARGUE with me that I am deluded about my non-mystical explanation of how to do them. They invariably conclude that I am obviously using some mystical, magic, non-scientific, non-physical energy or ability, and that I am either lying to them or are deluded about it being a trained skill.
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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on the post.
