The usefulness of kata.

ChangWuJi · Orange Belt

I agree but you underestimate shadow boxing. If you do it long enough, and practise like you're really fighting and also know the application behind form it will become second nature. You will hit before you think; The ability to receive and neutralize force below the level of conscious thought will be achieved. Shadow boxing also helps form, flexibility, endurance, and internal/physological factors.

Angus · Black Belt

I'm not a big fan of shadow boxing either. I like to use it as a warmup but i'd much rather use a bag to work technique. And obviously nothing beats sparring.

Shadow boxing for too long can teach bad habits i reckon.

Angus

_________________
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear.

KickChick · Black Belt

Every movement in karate is scientifically designed with specific purpose.
Constant repetition teaches patience and the resolve to overcome any difficulty. The tremendous power generated from one's body develops the self-confidence to meet any opponent, at any place, and in any situation. Sparring teaches humilty, courage, alertness and accuracy, adaptability as well as self-control. (something we all need more of! ...right Angus??)

Patterns or katas, teach flexibility, grace, balance and coordination, while the fundamental exercises develop precision and teaches method, principle, imagination and purpose. Eventually, this training permeates every conscious and subconscious action of the student.

The secret of becoming a black belt is a simple one... learn thoroughly each technique, especially katas/patterns, step by step, not only developing a physical reflexive action, but developing mental concentration as well.
I for one don't believe this to be "a bad habit".

Angus · Black Belt

Heh, wel that stuff is all good and nice, and it may work in theory - it may even turn u into a philosophical master. But i for one don't enjoy walking around in my slippers all day quoting Niesche and Vultare.

I've seen too many 'karate black belts' get beaten up to take this stuff (that being 'grace, humility, fluidity, application blah blah blah) seriously.

A bloke down here called Bob Jones (founder of Zen Do Kai) was a bouncer before he started the martial arts. He then went on to do Goju Kai, which taught kata and rigid blocks and all that. He would practice his rigid blocks for hours and hours, but the thing was he started to get hit more and more when he was doing his bouncing jobs. Why? Not because he was bad at karate (he practiced every day and had received his black belt when he came to this conclusion), but karate was bad for him. He tried doing the rigid blocks and all that when wild punches were being thrown, but they just weren't working. So, since i think 1967 or 1970, Bob has been the head of the largest martial arts group in Australia. He did away with the traditional crap that was getting him into trouble. Although we still have katas, they are modified and we never once go thru the whole thing without being asked what each move is doing.

Look, a lot of people by the philosophical crap that the karate guys feed us, but i don't. I'm out to look after number one, me, and i'm gonna be realistic and spend my time on more constructive things such as bagwork and sparring.

Angus

_________________
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear.

KickChick · Black Belt

all "good & nice"??

c'mon:roll:
Quote: "It in no way betters your street self-defense, and i mean in NO way at all, and i get frustrated greatly when i find myself wasting time trying to learn a kata to pass a test. "

ok...well, see now ---we all have different goals in mind in practicing the martial art that we choose to study. My goals are not to beat the living crap out of you. (not saying that I could or even want to!) I'm not a streetfighting woman.

I do my fighting in the dojo. But if I gots to fight ... I can do it babee!
There are the traditionalists and the non-comformists ... in every aspect of life.

I can see where you fit in.

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(KarateForums Sensei)

[ This Message was edited by: KickChick on 2001-12-14 13:49 ]

ChangWuJi · Orange Belt

Actually Jiu Jitsu and almost every other Japanese/Okinawan martial art has these blocks as well as KIA's!
It is part of the training curriculum and martial culture. Do you have the gall to say that they are all ineffective?

There have been plenty of Japanese/Okinawan famous fighters of these arts that proved fighting ability, but maybe your friend was stuck with a bad teacher?

Angus · Black Belt

YES! I do indeed, dear sir, have the gall to say that they are ineffective (in their natural state)... The blocks i practice and the blocks taught in most freestyle places now are basic deflections with less rigid application and more practicality.

The rigid blocks are out of date. It's like replacing a horse with a motorbike. Much more effective!

I don't think my 'friend' Kyoshi Sama Bob Jones (7th degree master and founder of the Zen Do Kai Martial Arts System) was stuck with a bad teacher. He learned ther hard way, and discovered that practicality is better than tradition if you're looking to save your life.
I'm not gonna give u his life story. U can read ity at http://www.zendokai.com.au if u have any interest in what a REAL fighter is like. (I might just add that this dude is everything i wanna become when i 'grow up').

And kickchick - i respect that some people just like doing the kata for fun and the philosphical side and grace and all that. That's cool... But at least they aren't fooling themselves that they are effectively teaching themselves to fight. The people that train in kata for 3 hours a day in order to learn to defend themselves better are simply not putting their time to the best use they can.

Blah blah blah, i've said it all before and i'm too tired to say it all again.
Angus

_________________
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear.

SaiFightsMS · KF VIP

There are some discussions that will never end.

ad · Brown Belt

is charp choi, kay bou so fa, farq yu, (mind my spelling) kata for HO-GAR kung fu???,
please forgive me if i am wrong
but if they are not they still are the same way, gracefull movements consiting of different combos of moves, some of the moves i agree are very useless and seem intimadating, yet some are very helpful and are a great aid when fighting, generally i feel kata moves improves your flexibility and balance, which is very important in the martial art world,
so i feel it is useful,
kata, is really what distinquishes ordinary fighting, such as boxing, in to the real martial arts
-ad

ronryu · Orange Belt

It is very interesting reading all the replys from this thread so let me throw my 2 cents in . I am a traditionalist . 16 yrs in Motobu ha shi to ryu karate and i love kata .To me kata is more then just an exercise it is the history of the style . There are many different bunkai that take many years of study to understand .Even now when i run a kata i will always find something new in it.
But hey traditionla karate is not for everyone that is why there are so many different systems out there . I once heard one of my Sensei say "A school chooses you , you do not choose a school " and that is what i tell every potential student taht walks in to take class's from me .
I sincerly hope this reply does not anger anyone that is not my intent im just voicing my opinion .

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Karate is not a sport , it is a way of life .
Sandan Motobu ha Shi-to ryu karate
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