The usefulness of kata.

Angus · Black Belt

First let me state what i see kata as, and then i will press my point.

Kata is a group of set movements which are to be carried out in a smooth and graceful manner, simulating a conflict with one or multiple opponents. It teaches grace and discipline and allows the student to learn to combine movements together.

Now to what i want to say. I don't like kata. I will do it in order to discipline myself but i really do despise kata. No offense to Ms Williams whatsoever but i am glad that i am not doing Taesujutsu, as in her intro it says that one has to learn i think the number was 18 kata to go for 1st degree black belt.
I'm am very much the crosstrainer and from my 12 years of experience i have found that kata, well at least for me, is very useless.

It in no way betters your street self-defense, and i mean in NO way at all, and i get frustrated greatly when i find myself wasting time trying to learn a kata to pass a test. I'm sure thaiboxerken will back me up to a degree.

Now don't get me wrong, kata is good for some people who want to learn that, and that is the point of my post, to learn what you people want. Kyoshi Ebanez (my instructor in Goju Ryu Karate) is very heavy on kata, and i find it a most refreshing lesson in discipline when we do kata for an hour and a half, but i am very much into the kumite side of things.

What do you think about kata?
Angus

_________________
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear.

Taesujutsudrw · Orange Belt

Actually it does better you ability in the street.
By learning to take on more than one opponent at a time it cuts down on your freeezing up, if you are attacked by more than one person.

My Hyungs are geared for that purpose..they are not only tradtional(9 of htem ar.),
But the others are self-defense techniques combined.

Hynugs are very important to the learning factor for a number of reasons, but mainly, because they will teach you to stay calm in certian situations.

No offense taken, by not wanting to take my style...the first thing I require of everyopne..is that they leave their ego at the door. LOL,
Somehow I think you might have a problem with that.

I am not ususally one on titles, but if want to continue to refer to me as Ms. Williams..then I must say please use the title that goes with my rank..Kyoshi.

Peace,
Tae

_________________
Kyoshi Deborah R. Williams 7th Dan
Founder/Senoir Instructor Tae Su Jutsu
Board member International Martial arts Association.
"Before destruction one's heart is haughty, but humility goes before honor."
Proverbs 18:12

F-S-K · Yellow Belt

our sensei gave us a run through of the first kata to do for kickboxing, was fairly basic and we managed it, then for a laugh he let us do a run through of the black belt kata, now THIS was hard lol, i can see how it shows you to combine moves and pass from one technique to the next flawlesly

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

I can't stand Katas. To me, it's wasted robotic movements that are simulating combat in a static state. A real fight is constant and dynamic, meaning it is always changing. Katas are merely a training method to bring out fluidity of motion, but in no way does it simulate combat.

I feel Kata is outdated and no longer needed in a society where martial arts are legal. Kata were first developed to hide techniques in a time where martial arts were illegal to peasants. Today, we can enjoy training in martial arts without fear of prosecution.

If you like Kata, by all means keep doing them. Whatever floats your boat.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

egarlock · White Belt

Do you feel the same way about mathematics? "If this happens then do this other thing to solve it". It's not meant to be rote regurgitation of my position to your position. It really is meant to be an awareness development tool.

How many times have you done outside middle block, upper block, straight punch in a form? Well lo and behold I happened upon that very same combination the last time I sparred. It worked and worked well. What makes it really interesting is that is the very first combination that was taught to me in my first kempo kata.

Would I have "found" that combination with out the kata? Maybe, but probably not because upper block feels unnatural to me when practicing it.

_________________
Hit Harder, Run Faster

egarlock · White Belt

thaiboxerken, heving trained with Guro Dan, how many time have you done sumbrada drills? Siniwali 6 count? Hubad? Are they not a form of kata? Are you discounting Guro's knowledge?

Karateka · Red Belt

To all the Kumite'rs out there, I myself love Kumite very much. I also realise the importance of Kata. I have been in many situations in real life where I have done moves in Kata. Most of Kumite comes from Katas. I don't know if any of you do Bunkai, or the application of the techniques, but they may help you to better understand what the hell the katas are actually doing. Talk about it with your class.

BTW Kumite rules. I personally prefer Kumite all the way.

_________________
"Never hit a man while he's down; kick him, its easier"

Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei)

iamrushman · KF VIP

may i reply to this very interesting thread.

of course first i must agree wholeheartedly with the points raised by TAE, kARATEKA, and EGARLOCK (reference to mathmatics was brilliant) and stand on there side toward the poomse(kata) issue.

next i would like to say that as usual and predicted the younger/youthful responce to calculated movements is found to be boring and stiff to them. they want and require fast,quick, now responces without thinking of the consequenses or the results of there actions.

lastly i would like to introduce the other benefits to calculated movements(kata,poomse, forms,hyungs). that of, controlled and calculated breathing while making the movements. and the increased balance it takes to make those movements under controlled, precised conditions.

humble respects with a bow

_________________
rushman (karate forums sensei)
3rd dan wtf/kukkiwon
"saying nothing...sometimes says the most"--e. dickerson

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

Siniwali, hubad, sumbrada are not really Kata. They are training methods used to get a person used to swinging a stick and reacting. Katas are those movements done in the air a million times in a certain set pattern. The difference is that with the FMA, we do a pattern and then we break out of the pattern and do our own thing. We don't do that same pattern over and over again.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

Tobias_Reece · Brown Belt

Hi all

I think some people are forgetting that some martial arts are exactly that - an ART.

I understand that kata is designed for you to fight imaginary opponents, but some of these opponents are actually only in your mind.

I understand peoples points - some of the higher level katas have moves which change dramatically when the bunkai is used. But still, they can help you in a kumite/street fight situation.

I know I can rely on TS757 for some backup.

C ya

_________________
"You Are Never Given A Dream Without Also Being Given The Power To Make It True. You May Have To Work For It, However"

Principal Kobudo Instructor & Owner
West Yorkshire Kobudo Academy
2nd Kyu (Matayoshi Okinawan Kobudo, IOKA UK)

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